tier list/strongest and weakest characters
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@Double00Dusty Nid has a lot of health so it is really hard for a Gizmo to win the matchup, but Nid is not the fighter to deal with a Gizmo
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@BLAZ3-Major comin in with the Makutu knowledge! Hell yes this is just what we needed in this discussion!
You bring up a lot of interesting points about Makutu including his ability to deal with Daemon, which I either never experienced or didn't get to see. As I rewatch my Twitch Vods I do see him picked often in all levels, so I'm inclined to take these points into account as I do more research and edit the list in the coming days. Though I still feel like he is probably the weakest of the three tanks at a baseline, I am definitely reconsidering his position on the list as I am with a few other fighters. Did you stream your games at all @BLAZ3-Major ? I'd love to check out your vods if you do.
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@BLAZ3-Major I am on board with you here. There seems to be a lot of surface-level hate for ol'boy Makutu. I clocked up around 10 hours with Makutu during the beta and tank in all of the competitive pvp games I play, so I feel I can chime in here.
I think when compared to the other tanks Makutu doesn't tank in the same way. He is not a dive in and assassinate type of tank like El'bastardo or a positioning punish like Buttercup. Makutu is a disrupt tank, very similar to Winston or Hammond in overwatch.
I think there are a few key things that need to be understood when it comes to tanking before we discuss the "effectiveness" of a tank. The primary objective of a tank is to "create space", by create space I mean creating an opportunity to deal damage or create physical space for a team to move onto an objective. They can do this by mitigating damage and/or drawing attention from the enemy team.
So the key criteria for a useful tank are typically:
- High sustain - either through high health or shields
- Disrupt - A way to disrupt an enemy player (aka stun or knock-back)
- Escape/Engage - They need a way to start a fight and then leave safely
So with this in methodology in mind and some criteria to measure tank effectiveness against I think these points should be considered when ranking the tanks in the overall tier list
Makutu
High sustain - 5/5
Disrupt - 4/5
Escape/Engage - 2/5Makutu, imo has the highest sustain without a support (only second to El'Bastardo, depending on skill). His ability to disrupt falls onto his shoulder charge and "boop" abilities, on the surface these seem useless or trivial but when used with the goal of creating space these are some of the strongest abilities in the game. He does fall short when it comes to his escape and is reliant on his speed boost and should charge.
Key mods: Cooldown on hit, increased heal burst, increased self-heal, 3 sec slow to players hit by "boop"
Buttercup
High sustain - 2/5
Disrupt - 5/5
Escape/Engage - 4/5Buttercup on her own actually has very poor sustain and all of her threat and space creation comes in the form of constant damage. Her strongest utilities are her "hook/yank" and AOE slow. She speed boost is a great escape and she can charge people when coming off her mount.
Key mods: ??? (need some input here)
p.s: not too much experience with buttercup, would love someone with more experience to add to this.
El'Bastardo
High sustain - 5/5
Disrupt - 3/5
Escape/Engage - 1/5El'bastardo has amazing sustain and in some cases pretty much unkillable when your time is abilities well. He doesn't have too much in the way of disrupting the enemy besides his stun on leap and this goes for escape and engage once you have used your leap your pretty much YOLO commenting into a fight.
Key mods: ??? (need some input here)
p.s: not too much experience with El'b, would love someone with more experience to add to this.
Thats my two sents, I love these conversations would love to hear others opinions or chat more about this.
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I also posted some damage numbers and combos I was testing for Makutu over on this thread: https://www.bleedingedge.com/forums/topic/550/makutu-combos/4
just an fyi.
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The tanks are really well done in this game. You have the fighter tank in bastardo, the initiation tank in buttercup and the support tank in makutu.
Makutu isn’t bad he just doesn’t bring reliable cc like the other two. You have to be close to a wall to get the stun.
Imo the best part about him is the varied combos he can do but unfortunately most people just dodge out of the combos. I think the only thing he needs is a faster attack speed so that he can access the combos and stuns that come later in the chain
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It's too early for a Tier List.
Interesting observations on how people faired with characters though.
The right Team will make any character you select look S++. -
@Azrael008uk While I'm inclined to agree, like I said earlier there was a shift in picks as I kept playing and getting more wins. It's too early for a definitive look, of course, but the point is really to stir some discussion and have a knowledge base at a glance going into Beta 2. There is a lot of great insight here already and for what it's worth, I'd like to keep it going.
On Makutu
I feel like noone here really hated Makutu, I feel that especially after seeing some testimonies I have a better grasp on how I should have approached him. Like I said earlier I feel he falls into the "utility tank" archetype where the other 2 are clearly offensive powerhouses. There is something to be said about taking advantage of his stances, because from what I'm reading he seems more like a playmaker than anything else. Though, at the same time, the impression I'm getting are unanimous in that his kit is very dynamic and situational. I definitely feel after reading some impressions that there was a lot of unexplored potential so that is awesome.
Then again when I look back I don't think it gives him a leg up against the other tanks. It DOES make me reconsider the DPS hierarchy a bit, but I'd need to see some footage before I really care to move him specifically up in the ranks.
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@AmazingVector said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
Has anyone tried to hook or freeze Maeve during the combo? Shit Miko can even Bubble shield in response and Nidhoggr can Axe toss in response. Has noone clapped back against her?Of course, but then her third ability counters all of that, again with little to no complexity. She can just go poof and she's invisible AND invulnerable for the next few seconds. She has time to get out of the firing range, get some/find some healing, then her Cage is already off cooldown...rinse and repeat. Then she has the potential to use her abilities even more frequently with her Schadenfreude ability reset!
@BLAZ3-Major said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
Makutu's greatest strength is his ability to not dieThat is the problem with him though, he's too easy to kill right now. He's not completely garbage like some people say and there are certain situations where he is incredibly effective. He is a disrupter as I mentioned in a post above and in terms of recapturing the objective and sustaining your team a little he can be a real asset. But - he can't parry, he doesn't get flung back out of melee proximity, and his melee attacks are easy to parry as they are so slow. He is just too situational right now especially compared to the rest of the roster. Miko ironically has greater sustainability than him IMO.
@Azrael008uk said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
The right Team will make any character you select look S++.Yeah, this is the trump card to nearly every thread on this forum tbh
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@x-AmberPrice I feel like if you can constantly chase her out then she just sort of ends up as a psuedo assassin type that can't truly confirm if she is isloated. You can dodge the cage on prediction and if you close the distance you get in before Siphon can kill or get a lot of healing back. Then she is a melee attack away from either running again or straight up dying. I know this is why she sucks against Cass, because you can her the pops when she blinks in and out (they are loud IMO) and she can't get that damage in before Cass gets in again to net the kill and re-engage. I feel like her biggest problem is the counterplay making her more prone to being dived on, forcing the vanish, then having a Daemon, Cass or even Miko or Nidhoggr being aware of her poof-in and just trying to get in. She sort of needs the team built around her from my experience. She just never got so out of hand she wiped the team that I saw.
I also use the easily parried factor against Nidhoggr too. I do agree that when Makutu's combo gets to the animation where he comes down with the double-chop is super easy to parry. You get a lot of time to see it coming and 2 real chances to parry. I will say though the charge is something I guess I didn't see in totality where if the opponent hits the wall they get stunned. I don't think it happened to me, then again as a non-tank I try to avoid engaging them lol.
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This post is deleted! -
Hey everyone! After looking through footage, peeking the Discord and gathering all the information here, I have redone the tier list to more accurately reflect our consensus as a community. We have had a lot of discussion here the passed few days and it has been great. That being said, please be sure to drop any footage in the Twitch Clips thread, check the OP for the updated list, and let's keep talking!
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When I did my testing the solo power results were:
(30 being perfect)
Buttercup: 2
Cass: 19
Daemon: 17
El Bastardo: 11
Gizmo: 12
Kulev: 4
Maeve: 18
Makutu: 3
Miko: 6
Nidhoggr: 13
ZeroCool: 0If I had to put my finger on a number I'd say the closer someone was to 12 the better they did in the beta. Prove me wrong
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@AmazingVector Had a read through your revised tier list, although I am sad Makutu is at the bottom I do agree with your points. Pretty happy with this as an overall initial outlook on the state of the heroes from beta.
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I'm baffled why anyone would believe El Bastardo is weak. Though I do get the point that he feels less like a tank than an Assassin. But that's the thing, Heavy just means you're good at weathering hits, which El Bastardo IS good at if he's going all out. His job is to force the enemy team to choose, to either try and take him down quickly, or go after others and let him completely disrupt their positioning. He's far better at disruption than Makutu, because he has very high damage threat and his shields to more to sustain him than Makutu's healing mid-battle.
@x-AmberPrice said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
That is the problem with him though, he's too easy to kill right now. He's not completely garbage like some people say and there are certain situations where he is incredibly effective.
(On the topic of Makutu) I really and truly agree. I played him a bunch trying to figure him out and understand what he was good for. His pepeke stance and Leg-It provides such a worthless speed boost that melee's can land their full combo while you're running away, he doesn't have an evade or parry though he IS impossible to make flinch with hits, his Barge is fairly unwieldy and easy to miss, and his repellent though useful pushes enemies OUT of your effective range of damage... oh and his damage feels abysmal. The slap em good passive can REALLY lay down some damage, but only if they sit there and take it. Once their whole team is focusing you, you're gone in a second.
But! Once I figured him out I won several games in a row and had a lot of fun as him. You play him kind of like Miko: stay with your team, peel for them using Barge/Repellent/Melee, try to keep them healthy and safe with some healing and cleanse, and don't bother chasing enemies just get your objectives. You're a buddy character, the kind of buddy a fighter like Gizmo really needs in order to shine as a top damage dealer, and Gizmo can EASILY out-damage others if someone is protecting her. (Hence why one posts says "omg she's broken" and another places her bottom tier like this one).
Oh and Amber it's been nice talking with you in the forum. We happened to fight against each other during the beta while we were both playing Cass. It was a very close game in the aqueducts.
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Hey there!
Great list! Very interesting read
I like playing kulev myself for similar reasons as to what you posted. I also find he can be quite slippery against a few enemies at once. Being able to hold off against a few foes by yourself for a little while creates for good opportunities to try and distract the enemy. Plus it’s always great luring an enemy towards you then bamboozling them into an environmental Hazard!
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Yes! @TwangyGuitar193 Kulev is insanely good. Most people don't know, but his passive is probably the best in the game (Lucky Charm) it heals all the allies near him, also his other ultimate is so good (Boon-adding damage, speed, AND defense). I believe he was a bit underused cause he is a bit difficult (understanding when to Curse/positioning of the totem, and so on), but he is definitely my top 3 picks going into the following beta for sure!
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@BLAZ3-Major said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
Overall I'd say makutu is meant to be played as a shield to other characters: a makutu can easily hold off a Daemon or Cass attempting to take out a healer, and if a teammate is capturing a point or depositing energy then makutu almost assures their safety. In comparison to the other tanks I'd say that while buttercup and el bastardo are meant to be played agressively and offensively, makutu is better for agressively defending.
Can't believe I missed this post. Finally, someone else understands him! He's a defender. If the enemy runs away, just let them. Focus on your teammates and the objectives. I disagree on a few minor points, but all-in-all I think you have a good grasp on the character. He does, however, need a buff.
I made a suggestions post regarding the bits I think need changed, as a veritable Makutu main please read his section and let me know what you think.
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@SoM3-R4Nd0M-NuB what is the criteria for this survivability list? Is it kills? Positional advantage wins? Forcing a flee/routed? These all seem like arbitrary numbers to me, so as much as I'd like to bring up points I don't even know what I'm looking at since the numerical values seem arbitrary and meaningless.
@Evade-This5965 I don't think Bastardo is weak, per se, he is just not a strong of a pick as other characters. Especially in the tank category, he feels the weakest at performing actions such as peeling and he is the only Tank type that flinches from combo attacks. This makes him weak as a pick and lose in the priority war to Nidhoggr because while Nid has less overall health, his abilities, combos and the healing he gets from them are far better. These put him below Makutu and at the bottom of the list.
Thanks for the input everyone, let's keep the discussion going! I feel like we have been narrowing it down well and going into Beta 2 we can look for changes and are able to accurately test theory discussed in this thread.
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@AmazingVector Those are good points regarding El Bastardo. He is terrible at peeling AND control, rather he's a total full dive tank that's only useful when he's running into the enemy team. So he doesn't fulfill the tank role for anyone but himself. Thus, in terms of a character being team-oriented, he seems way below the others. However I would like to make a few points in his favor, though I wouldn't necessarily change his tier ranking because of that, I just want to be clear about his virtues.
For one, the reason why he's classified as a Heavy despite lacking the anti-flinch feature is because he obtains shields absurdly easily. I don't want to be presumptuous, but in case you don't know, a melee attack that gets blocked by a shield (or I believe even if it's partially blocked) will not cause them to flinch. So, in a way, he has the same anti-flinch aspect, because he's constantly obtaining new shields with every bit of damage he deals. Which further enforces the idea that he's only useful if he's doing damage.
Since he is a fairly high damage dealer, and all of that damage gives him shield, his sustainability in a fight is actually higher than Makutu's... in the short term. Makutu can be focused down much easier and has to move in and out a little to really take advantage of his regeneration, whereas El Bastardo doesn't want to stop unless he just needs to run or get better positioning. In this way I'm convinced that while NT claims Makutu excels at disrupting the enemy team, it's actually El Bastardo that achieves this far far better. He's a tank by aggro, presenting such a high threat that ignoring him is impossible if you don't want to die, but trying to focus him is also just not that easy. The problem is this usually only draws the attention of a few enemies, not all of them, who then go take out your squishies.
As a result, I think he's countered by peel, so in an extremely simplified manner I'd like to say that the rock-paper-scissors of Heavy's (in terms of team fights, not 1v1's) is: El Bastardo > Buttercup > Makutu > El Bastardo. This is because Buttercup can pull people out of position where peel becomes more difficult, but she doesn't have much peel herself despite having a decent amount of control because pulling El Bastardo towards her team is where he wants to be. Makutu who has a lot of peel can't stop a Yank. Then El Bastardo who has a lot of Dive can be easily distracted and pushed back by Makutu.
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@Evade-This5965 said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
I'm baffled why anyone would believe El Bastardo is weak.
I only briefly mentioned why I think he's weak in my tier list just to keep the post to a minimum so I'll try to explain my reasoning in a bit more detail here. I am trying to be as objective as possible but I think we all have differing opinions that interfere regardless, mainly because we all had differing experiences with the game. For a bit of context, you could say El Bastardo is my "main" as I've probably put around 30 hours into him which is mental considering the game hasn't even fully released yet. I'd go as far to say there aren't many more players, if any at all, that have more time with him.
Just to reiterate - I don't think he needs a buff or anything like that. I didn't have anyone in a "Tier D" in my list simply because I don't think anyone deserves to be there right now. The only character I singled out slightly was Maeve in "S"...but that's for another topic. I just think in the game's current climate, there are characters that are better at fulfilling his role. Granted, you could make a case for every character being more ideal than another in a certain situation. Perhaps that's where he ultimately lacks - that bit of flexibility that others seem to have.
The ideal play-style to maximise his kit is certainly that of an aggressor or initiator. I've had good success when I've partnered with a Daemon where we preemptively target a single enemy and then jump on them at the same time. Likewise, his obvious strategy to be the first to jump on the point and deal damage until they move or kill you and hopefully your team is backing you up to prevent the latter. To stay true to the individual tier list I'll try to avoid mentioning coordination and teamwork and stick strictly to the individual's kit.
A big problem for me is how much significance his LEAP lacks. 9 out of 10 times you are using Leap to engage an enemy. Usually one that is too far away to damage with basic melee attacks and/or is on low health. But once you Leap onto an enemy, that enemy is usually looking to quickly disengage (because low health for example). Let's say, Gizmo for example (Ranged characters are generally a bit of a cheese pick against him as well due to his lack of mobility as I am about to explain). You Leap onto a Gizmo and all she has to do is evade backwards and you've got to either waste your evades to chase her or just sponge damage without producing shields whilst walking in treacle to get back into melee range. That's without considering the fact she can Sucka Bomb you away slightly (that slight pull back is all it takes) or just jump to higher ground with her bounce pad (exploit verticality as much as you can and you will win more games is my number 1 tip right now). Go down the list and you'll find that every character has at least one additional traversal/disengage mechanic to get away from a Leap besides the typical evade. It's so easy to board up once you've defended the initial Leap engagement. The Leap DOES stun, but it's for such a short amount of time, even with the Mod to increase its stun duration and I think that's more of a secondary effect to the ability rather than its priority intention
There's a ton of CC abilities in the game too, and I think MOST do more harm than good to him. Kulev's Sacred Ground for example, a very common ability that's up in most team fights if the Kulev is alive. If he puts that where his team is, you are doing absolutely nothing in terms of damage output whilst putting yourself at a disadvantage (because you're trying to maximise his kit by creating shields).
Every character has a pretty large ttk duration, El Bastardo being one who survives more than most...supposedly. The thing is, in order to start producing those shields, you've almost got to compensate that for some lost health. Hard to explain without demonstrating, but how else are you going to produce shields without taking the frontline damage of the team? You can't poke in and out or sit on the Objective as effectively as the other two tanks or you'll lose your shields and have less health than a base Assassin health pool. The role of tank changes when you pick El Bastardo over the other two. I think you still need the traditional beefy tank AS WELL AS Bastardo...but Bastardo doesn't do nearly enough damage output to justify his pick in a DPS role
He doesn't do nearly enough damage to deal with a squishy. Unless you have a team backing you up as I mentioned at the beginning.
"...unless you have a team backing you up" is a counter point I could make for everything I'm writing here. Same applies to all the other characters. This is trying to judge solely as a character in his own right, which is difficult in such a team oriented game. You play right and have good synergy/chemistry as a team then I 100% agree that any character can look "Tier S" standard right now.
I've never really enjoyed the idea of a character that needs to do damage in order to maximise his kit either. I have no idea how he ended up being my most played, haha. A lot of the time, the best option isn't to just dive in and flail your machetes about. It's to assess who's low, who needs help, who needs taking out, prioritising, holding objectives, disengaging, etc etc. Rather than....ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK BECAUSE YOU MUST!1!1!!1!!
So....he lacks mobility. He lacks damage output. He lacks considerable survivability as he has to endanger himself in order to produce shields most of the time (risk vs reward fluctuates more often than you would like).
If you need to sustain an Objective Control point and you are dying too quickly and easily as a team....pick Buttercup or Makutu.
If you need more damage output....pick Nidhoggr (his high health pool plus the fact he can heal himself damaging burned enemies makes him a better version of El Bastardo IMHO).
If you need somebody mobile and harassing the backlines...don't use a Tank slot to fulfill this role....pick Daemon, Cass, Maeve...
Bit of a non-structured ramble but I hope you understand my perspective a bit more. Once again I don't think he deserves to be buffed or anything like that, I don't think any of the characters need fundamentally changing until at least a couple weeks after launch, then re-evaluate from there. It's nice to give everyone a bit of breathing space.
...And yes I think I remember recognising your name in-game which is awesome
