Posts made by AmazingVector

@SoM3-R4Nd0M-NuB what is the criteria for this survivability list? Is it kills? Positional advantage wins? Forcing a flee/routed? These all seem like arbitrary numbers to me, so as much as I'd like to bring up points I don't even know what I'm looking at since the numerical values seem arbitrary and meaningless.

@Evade-This5965 I don't think Bastardo is weak, per se, he is just not a strong of a pick as other characters. Especially in the tank category, he feels the weakest at performing actions such as peeling and he is the only Tank type that flinches from combo attacks. This makes him weak as a pick and lose in the priority war to Nidhoggr because while Nid has less overall health, his abilities, combos and the healing he gets from them are far better. These put him below Makutu and at the bottom of the list.

Thanks for the input everyone, let's keep the discussion going! I feel like we have been narrowing it down well and going into Beta 2 we can look for changes and are able to accurately test theory discussed in this thread.

Hey everyone! After looking through footage, peeking the Discord and gathering all the information here, I have redone the tier list to more accurately reflect our consensus as a community. We have had a lot of discussion here the passed few days and it has been great. That being said, please be sure to drop any footage in the Twitch Clips thread, check the OP for the updated list, and let's keep talking!

I agree that parrying can feel frustrating to pull off against some characters but as I kept playing I realized how much it was used against me. Fast characters like Daemon can be tricky but Nidhoggr and Makutu are both slow and have a predictable rhythm. IMO it worked well when I wanted it to since there are characters who are more susceptible, it's just a heavily timing based technique but there is a skill curve there.

My biggest problem is having to deadstick to actually do it. That was very frustrating.

I feel there were plenty of combos I could discover. As a Bayonetta fan and as a long-time FGC competitor I found a good amount of ways to combo and put opponents in a midair state where you can deal big damage since they can't dodge out. For example, as Buttercup, a basic combo is after your X combo you launch them. Right as they fly into the air you can use the oil to cancel out the animation then use her Stamina-based Run to move in quick while the oil frees your movement for an extended combo or a slam in the air.

I feel as though you guys didn't explore enough. Make sure to Dojo in the next beta!

Really? Noone else streamed?

Air combos were on of the first things I sat in the dojo for. Some characters can go from midair attacks, to landing to continue the combo like in a traditional fighting game. I think one of the main concerns with the idea of the air combo as a concept is that a lot of the moves are either a 2-3 hit hard knockdown combo or a slam that goes into the knockdown. I've used them as a "get off me" option (Jump then immediately press X) because sometimes it feels random if I actually get the air combo or the knockdown attack but depending on the character, it is a viable option. El Bastardo has a quick midair 1-2 knockback that is decent for peeling if you aren't being harassed yourself.

I also fear that it may skew balance. Characters like Daemon can already instantly delete the likes of Maeve and Cass in one combo and since the midair juggle state is so powerful in this game since you can't dodge out during an air combo (or if one character is considered 'midair' while being hit). If this happens then it might not be much a "brawler" anymore.

@x-AmberPrice I feel like if you can constantly chase her out then she just sort of ends up as a psuedo assassin type that can't truly confirm if she is isloated. You can dodge the cage on prediction and if you close the distance you get in before Siphon can kill or get a lot of healing back. Then she is a melee attack away from either running again or straight up dying. I know this is why she sucks against Cass, because you can her the pops when she blinks in and out (they are loud IMO) and she can't get that damage in before Cass gets in again to net the kill and re-engage. I feel like her biggest problem is the counterplay making her more prone to being dived on, forcing the vanish, then having a Daemon, Cass or even Miko or Nidhoggr being aware of her poof-in and just trying to get in. She sort of needs the team built around her from my experience. She just never got so out of hand she wiped the team that I saw.

I also use the easily parried factor against Nidhoggr too. I do agree that when Makutu's combo gets to the animation where he comes down with the double-chop is super easy to parry. You get a lot of time to see it coming and 2 real chances to parry. I will say though the charge is something I guess I didn't see in totality where if the opponent hits the wall they get stunned. I don't think it happened to me, then again as a non-tank I try to avoid engaging them lol.

@Azrael008uk While I'm inclined to agree, like I said earlier there was a shift in picks as I kept playing and getting more wins. It's too early for a definitive look, of course, but the point is really to stir some discussion and have a knowledge base at a glance going into Beta 2. There is a lot of great insight here already and for what it's worth, I'd like to keep it going.

On Makutu

I feel like noone here really hated Makutu, I feel that especially after seeing some testimonies I have a better grasp on how I should have approached him. Like I said earlier I feel he falls into the "utility tank" archetype where the other 2 are clearly offensive powerhouses. There is something to be said about taking advantage of his stances, because from what I'm reading he seems more like a playmaker than anything else. Though, at the same time, the impression I'm getting are unanimous in that his kit is very dynamic and situational. I definitely feel after reading some impressions that there was a lot of unexplored potential so that is awesome.

Then again when I look back I don't think it gives him a leg up against the other tanks. It DOES make me reconsider the DPS hierarchy a bit, but I'd need to see some footage before I really care to move him specifically up in the ranks.

@BLAZ3-Major comin in with the Makutu knowledge! Hell yes this is just what we needed in this discussion!

You bring up a lot of interesting points about Makutu including his ability to deal with Daemon, which I either never experienced or didn't get to see. As I rewatch my Twitch Vods I do see him picked often in all levels, so I'm inclined to take these points into account as I do more research and edit the list in the coming days. Though I still feel like he is probably the weakest of the three tanks at a baseline, I am definitely reconsidering his position on the list as I am with a few other fighters. Did you stream your games at all @BLAZ3-Major ? I'd love to check out your vods if you do.

These are interesting theories, but I feel like we haven't nearly explored the breadth of what this game has to offer. I don't even think we are playing the "competitive" mode if I'm being honest, I feel like as a community we shouldn't do anything too sweeping as the gane has yet to mature. Taking just one look at the tier list discussion and others taking place on these forums it is becoming clear that the skill gap is already staggeringly high, with people undervaluing core mechanics such as the parry, jump attacks, and combo extension. I plan on opening up some topics for individual characters moving forward, so hopefully we can get these guys out of the woodwork to discuss even more going into Beta 2.