Alpha user
Agreed. There are people that would start the vote process IMMEDIATELY if the other team scores the first set of Power modules. OR if they're team gets wiped at the start of the game, I can imagine one player just decided to stay out of the match and spam the "End Match" vote.
@Matolius If there were a way to Like your post, I would. lol Any decent conversation that doesn't sound like snark is always appreciated.
That's a great summary video of the mechanics I hadn't seen before. I should send that to a couple of friends of mine still having issues with parrying lol
I still think my point stands - it still acts like a reset if it's 2 skilled players just countering each attack at one another. I also think the idea that there's no risk is on its face wrong because of missed timing. Unlike a CC power (like Miko's freezing), or dodging, when you choose to counter, you're taking the chance on making yourself vulnerable. Maybe you missed the timing of an animation, or maybe your opponent is good at controlling strike speed for just this kind of situation. Whatever the case may be, there is a risk, making it the weakest of the options. The argument in the video is that, even if you get hit, you have another chance to parry on the next strike. Sure, but the point is, comparatively, the counter system is weak and ineffectual.
I've played plenty of fighting games with different styles of counter systems, like reactionary RockPaperScissors-style counters, timed animation counters, time-window counters that allow you to counter an opponent within a time frame, etc. So far this seems to be the weakest version I've encountered.
Regardless, it seems like the consensus is, "this is great how it is" so I'll drop it.
@b4nj4x7581 said in Counter System Feedback:
That said if you are caught out, that could be just you getting caught out of position and the enemy team did a very good job punishing you for it in which case, that's more to the credit of their teamwork rather than discredit due to your mistake. Against ranged, there's a simple counter...slap the bejesus out of them. Hit-stun from melee is such a huge detriment to the damage from a ranged enemy. However if they parry you, then fair play to them, they are using parry to their advantage.
Parrying only feels effective because most players are bad at it. Parrying itself is, at best, a delay among 2 players of equal skill. It is a poor idea to have players that counter. Even just in theory you can think about it and see what a poor decision it is compared to any other game: the recovery animation for BOTH players is equal length in time. You can react much faster with a dodge, because you can immediately attack. There's no real benefit there unless you're dominating the counters.
The whole point of it not working in a group is ANOTHER point of mine - it's a mostly useless system that the game makes a point of teaching you. It's a TEAM based game, and the ONE recovery mechanic they create that they offer most characters is useless IN A TEAM SETTING. I'm not sitting here getting myself in "bad situations" Mr. Assumptions. In a team, getting CC-focused, I can still survive getting heals or having a tank draw people off me, sure. My point is that there's an entire mechanic that is useless there that should have some sort of function. You see it in other games all the time. Most fighting games a counter knocks down the opponent while leaving you standing so that you can take control of the fight - it's a reward for mastering a mechanic in the game. I've seen counter systems offer shields so that if you're being piled up on by bad players, you can play off of countering players regularly to dominate the fight. If you're the better player, the counter mechanic gives you an advantage. It's a reward for skill.
Sure, in those same games, if you get piled on by a full team because a poor pug healer or tank ran off or your team got wiped, and now you're facing down a roster of experienced players, there's nothing you can do. Obviously. But I'm not asking for that, either. I'm asking for a mechanic that the game makes a decent deal of teaching (melee counters) be more useful within the context of the gameplay its encouraging (group confrontations).
While none of what you said is technically wrong, it does not address any of my issues. The parry does not provide any measurable advantage.
I'm actually pretty good at parrying. When I first started playing, I played as Miko and went into the Dojo and spent a couple of hours learning character animations and countering them over and over. That's the reason I made this post. I really enjoy the system on a theoretical level, but in practice it's pointless.
Without a real reward, there's no point in even thinking about the counter system. The amount of times I've countered a Nidhoggr just to continue to be CC'd by a Daemon (because I'm also stuck in an animation after a counter) is ridiculous. I don't even bother unless it's a 1v1, and in that case, I get bigger advantages by dodging and timing my own attacks to CC my opponent than countering.
You're right that there would need to be additional balance changes, but that comes with ANY change that isnt explicitly balance-based
You don't even have to be cornered. If you can't immediately turn a corner to put a wall between you and the Ranged DPS chasing you, you will just die trying to run away. There needs to be a way to counter Ranged fighters.
I disagree and think the healer nerfs are largely pretty good. Miko was definitely overkill but Kulev and Zerocool are better for it and the quality of the games have improved IMO.
Firstly, both Miko and Zerocool did get pretty significant healing nerfs. You can now damage through Zerocool's beam pretty easily and the game is no longer reliant on who can pick off the Zerocool first in mirror comps which I think improves the overall quality of games. Miko's reduced self healing makes it pretty difficult to sustain herself now, especially with such a low health pool. She essentially used to act as a tank so her play style will definitely have to change.
I think the idea behind giving all 3 support characters a damage nerf was so you'd feel the lack of damage if you did decide to go double support.
Kulev and Zerocool definitely needed the damage nerf. Kulev could easily output the most damage in any team composition, even without damage mods. Zerocool had the potential to 1v1 a lot of characters which was a bit much on top of the fact he had by far the best healing output.
Double support comps are still a thing, especially with the new character being a support, but they aren't as effective as they were before because they lack the sustainability and added damage bonus they once had.
I was really excited to try this game, and became more excited when the tutorial taught me to Counter players. This is exactly what I'd been looking for in a game - skill-based recovery systems that would determine the outcome of a match.
But this has turned out to be meaningless. The recovery animations for both players after a counter is about the same, which means there's no real advantage to countering an opponent. And even if you count a reset of the interaction as a reward, this is only valuable in 1v1 situations, which you should never be in to begin with. In a group setting, countering one opponent would do nothing as another opponent hits you and CC's you with their melee combos anyways.
There should be a legitimate and tangible reward for countering opponents, like a shield, a push on opponents within melee range, control resistance, SOMETHING, ANYTHING that offers a momentary relief that could help a player escape being mobbed on if they're legitimately a good player.
This game should reward skill, not ignore it. I love what I've been able to do. I think the characters are unique and interesting to play. And while I agree with a lot of the other balance complaints (matching team levels) or bug fixes (mount cancelling) or content desires (I'd love some 2v2s, or some death matches!), I think this should be something the devs should consider.
Like I said, there are other things I think need to be fixed that get addressed in these forums. Without balanced match-making or more gameplay options, you will never expand your player base. And there are some things that get brought up that I don't agree with - like people being against double-triple healer comps; you can change your hero in your spawnpoint in order to change your team makeup to respond to the opponents' team makeup. But I also believe this counter system was added as a "good idea" that was just tossed in and not thought through. And it could make the difference between keeping a dedicated playerbase or regularly losing players that start getting better and hit a wall of "nothing i do matters" - they learn the mechanics bc they think they're fun, they go into a match, and realize the mechanics are hardly important and they got "good" at a game that they aren't actually playing.
I think this is the 3rd thread I've made in relation to this since late Alpha/early Beta and I thought it would finally be addressed with his rework...but sadly it hasn't, and now Makutu is a lot more viable and popular, his invulnerability cell cheese is even more of an occurrence than it was before.
If you didn't already know what I'm referring too, Makutu and his teammates nearby him can hand in Power Cells whilst invulnerable with Makutu's "Can't Touch Us" Super. If Makutu has the mod that increases the duration of Can't Touch Us, it will last the entire duration needed to hand in cells.
The only abilities in the game that counters this are Mekko's Bubble Super, Mekko's Sonic Barrage Super, Kulev's Bamboozle Super, and now Azrael's Wing Blast Super. Both the Bubble and Bamboozle only target Makutu as well, so it won't stop any of his teammates around him from handing in.
Tetris said on the Discord that they didn't change it because they felt it was a legitimate strategy like Kulev's Shield or Miko's Dome whilst handing in cells. Personally I don't agree with that at all because there are several counters to them both. You can simply damage through either, push through the Miko shield, cc Kulev, etc. With Makutu's Can't Touch Us, you can win in the most unfair, impossible situations. Through map environmentals, in the middle of a teamfight making that teamfight completely irrelevant, sitting through every ability in the game bar few specific Supers with 1 press of a button. And you can do this multiple times a match.
Yes, in theory there are things you can do to help prevent it, like hard focusing Makutu and cutting him off. But firstly, he's not easy to take down at all unless he's on his own and you cc chain him. And you can't take his Super away from him. He can always just spread cells about by going into spawn as well.
Unless you're incredibly disorganised and you're being steamrolled, it's such a strong win condition every time, and it certainly is on paper in competitive play if you're organised enough.
Winning every team fight and playing way better than the opposite team, only to have 1 player press 1 button and take the win away from you unless you switch to 1 of 3 characters and use 1 specific super and wait all game for that super to charge otherwise you lose is just absurd and I'm so surprised it's remained in the game for so long. If it wasn't so boring to consistently play (and actually seems to be one of the few bits of morale sportsmanship in the game not to use it), or we had a meaningful ranking system, it would be abused in every competitive game because it's the easiest chance of winning. In an evenly matched game, Makutu's Can't Touch Us mod for increased duration is more than a just a "margin" for victory.
Just removing or reworking the mod that currently increases its duration by 2 seconds would fix this, because there is opportunity to actually interrupt him then, and there can actually be legitimate strategy surrounding it like using it on your teammate if he's about to be interrupted by a stray or hopeful Gizmo bullet in the last second.
