tier list/strongest and weakest characters
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@AmazingVector Had a read through your revised tier list, although I am sad Makutu is at the bottom I do agree with your points. Pretty happy with this as an overall initial outlook on the state of the heroes from beta.
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I'm baffled why anyone would believe El Bastardo is weak. Though I do get the point that he feels less like a tank than an Assassin. But that's the thing, Heavy just means you're good at weathering hits, which El Bastardo IS good at if he's going all out. His job is to force the enemy team to choose, to either try and take him down quickly, or go after others and let him completely disrupt their positioning. He's far better at disruption than Makutu, because he has very high damage threat and his shields to more to sustain him than Makutu's healing mid-battle.
@x-AmberPrice said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
That is the problem with him though, he's too easy to kill right now. He's not completely garbage like some people say and there are certain situations where he is incredibly effective.
(On the topic of Makutu) I really and truly agree. I played him a bunch trying to figure him out and understand what he was good for. His pepeke stance and Leg-It provides such a worthless speed boost that melee's can land their full combo while you're running away, he doesn't have an evade or parry though he IS impossible to make flinch with hits, his Barge is fairly unwieldy and easy to miss, and his repellent though useful pushes enemies OUT of your effective range of damage... oh and his damage feels abysmal. The slap em good passive can REALLY lay down some damage, but only if they sit there and take it. Once their whole team is focusing you, you're gone in a second.
But! Once I figured him out I won several games in a row and had a lot of fun as him. You play him kind of like Miko: stay with your team, peel for them using Barge/Repellent/Melee, try to keep them healthy and safe with some healing and cleanse, and don't bother chasing enemies just get your objectives. You're a buddy character, the kind of buddy a fighter like Gizmo really needs in order to shine as a top damage dealer, and Gizmo can EASILY out-damage others if someone is protecting her. (Hence why one posts says "omg she's broken" and another places her bottom tier like this one).
Oh and Amber it's been nice talking with you in the forum. We happened to fight against each other during the beta while we were both playing Cass. It was a very close game in the aqueducts.
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Hey there!
Great list! Very interesting read
I like playing kulev myself for similar reasons as to what you posted. I also find he can be quite slippery against a few enemies at once. Being able to hold off against a few foes by yourself for a little while creates for good opportunities to try and distract the enemy. Plus it’s always great luring an enemy towards you then bamboozling them into an environmental Hazard!
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Yes! @TwangyGuitar193 Kulev is insanely good. Most people don't know, but his passive is probably the best in the game (Lucky Charm) it heals all the allies near him, also his other ultimate is so good (Boon-adding damage, speed, AND defense). I believe he was a bit underused cause he is a bit difficult (understanding when to Curse/positioning of the totem, and so on), but he is definitely my top 3 picks going into the following beta for sure!
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@BLAZ3-Major said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
Overall I'd say makutu is meant to be played as a shield to other characters: a makutu can easily hold off a Daemon or Cass attempting to take out a healer, and if a teammate is capturing a point or depositing energy then makutu almost assures their safety. In comparison to the other tanks I'd say that while buttercup and el bastardo are meant to be played agressively and offensively, makutu is better for agressively defending.
Can't believe I missed this post. Finally, someone else understands him! He's a defender. If the enemy runs away, just let them. Focus on your teammates and the objectives. I disagree on a few minor points, but all-in-all I think you have a good grasp on the character. He does, however, need a buff.
I made a suggestions post regarding the bits I think need changed, as a veritable Makutu main please read his section and let me know what you think.
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@SoM3-R4Nd0M-NuB what is the criteria for this survivability list? Is it kills? Positional advantage wins? Forcing a flee/routed? These all seem like arbitrary numbers to me, so as much as I'd like to bring up points I don't even know what I'm looking at since the numerical values seem arbitrary and meaningless.
@Evade-This5965 I don't think Bastardo is weak, per se, he is just not a strong of a pick as other characters. Especially in the tank category, he feels the weakest at performing actions such as peeling and he is the only Tank type that flinches from combo attacks. This makes him weak as a pick and lose in the priority war to Nidhoggr because while Nid has less overall health, his abilities, combos and the healing he gets from them are far better. These put him below Makutu and at the bottom of the list.
Thanks for the input everyone, let's keep the discussion going! I feel like we have been narrowing it down well and going into Beta 2 we can look for changes and are able to accurately test theory discussed in this thread.
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@AmazingVector Those are good points regarding El Bastardo. He is terrible at peeling AND control, rather he's a total full dive tank that's only useful when he's running into the enemy team. So he doesn't fulfill the tank role for anyone but himself. Thus, in terms of a character being team-oriented, he seems way below the others. However I would like to make a few points in his favor, though I wouldn't necessarily change his tier ranking because of that, I just want to be clear about his virtues.
For one, the reason why he's classified as a Heavy despite lacking the anti-flinch feature is because he obtains shields absurdly easily. I don't want to be presumptuous, but in case you don't know, a melee attack that gets blocked by a shield (or I believe even if it's partially blocked) will not cause them to flinch. So, in a way, he has the same anti-flinch aspect, because he's constantly obtaining new shields with every bit of damage he deals. Which further enforces the idea that he's only useful if he's doing damage.
Since he is a fairly high damage dealer, and all of that damage gives him shield, his sustainability in a fight is actually higher than Makutu's... in the short term. Makutu can be focused down much easier and has to move in and out a little to really take advantage of his regeneration, whereas El Bastardo doesn't want to stop unless he just needs to run or get better positioning. In this way I'm convinced that while NT claims Makutu excels at disrupting the enemy team, it's actually El Bastardo that achieves this far far better. He's a tank by aggro, presenting such a high threat that ignoring him is impossible if you don't want to die, but trying to focus him is also just not that easy. The problem is this usually only draws the attention of a few enemies, not all of them, who then go take out your squishies.
As a result, I think he's countered by peel, so in an extremely simplified manner I'd like to say that the rock-paper-scissors of Heavy's (in terms of team fights, not 1v1's) is: El Bastardo > Buttercup > Makutu > El Bastardo. This is because Buttercup can pull people out of position where peel becomes more difficult, but she doesn't have much peel herself despite having a decent amount of control because pulling El Bastardo towards her team is where he wants to be. Makutu who has a lot of peel can't stop a Yank. Then El Bastardo who has a lot of Dive can be easily distracted and pushed back by Makutu.
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@Evade-This5965 said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
I'm baffled why anyone would believe El Bastardo is weak.
I only briefly mentioned why I think he's weak in my tier list just to keep the post to a minimum so I'll try to explain my reasoning in a bit more detail here. I am trying to be as objective as possible but I think we all have differing opinions that interfere regardless, mainly because we all had differing experiences with the game. For a bit of context, you could say El Bastardo is my "main" as I've probably put around 30 hours into him which is mental considering the game hasn't even fully released yet. I'd go as far to say there aren't many more players, if any at all, that have more time with him.
Just to reiterate - I don't think he needs a buff or anything like that. I didn't have anyone in a "Tier D" in my list simply because I don't think anyone deserves to be there right now. The only character I singled out slightly was Maeve in "S"...but that's for another topic. I just think in the game's current climate, there are characters that are better at fulfilling his role. Granted, you could make a case for every character being more ideal than another in a certain situation. Perhaps that's where he ultimately lacks - that bit of flexibility that others seem to have.
The ideal play-style to maximise his kit is certainly that of an aggressor or initiator. I've had good success when I've partnered with a Daemon where we preemptively target a single enemy and then jump on them at the same time. Likewise, his obvious strategy to be the first to jump on the point and deal damage until they move or kill you and hopefully your team is backing you up to prevent the latter. To stay true to the individual tier list I'll try to avoid mentioning coordination and teamwork and stick strictly to the individual's kit.
A big problem for me is how much significance his LEAP lacks. 9 out of 10 times you are using Leap to engage an enemy. Usually one that is too far away to damage with basic melee attacks and/or is on low health. But once you Leap onto an enemy, that enemy is usually looking to quickly disengage (because low health for example). Let's say, Gizmo for example (Ranged characters are generally a bit of a cheese pick against him as well due to his lack of mobility as I am about to explain). You Leap onto a Gizmo and all she has to do is evade backwards and you've got to either waste your evades to chase her or just sponge damage without producing shields whilst walking in treacle to get back into melee range. That's without considering the fact she can Sucka Bomb you away slightly (that slight pull back is all it takes) or just jump to higher ground with her bounce pad (exploit verticality as much as you can and you will win more games is my number 1 tip right now). Go down the list and you'll find that every character has at least one additional traversal/disengage mechanic to get away from a Leap besides the typical evade. It's so easy to board up once you've defended the initial Leap engagement. The Leap DOES stun, but it's for such a short amount of time, even with the Mod to increase its stun duration and I think that's more of a secondary effect to the ability rather than its priority intention
There's a ton of CC abilities in the game too, and I think MOST do more harm than good to him. Kulev's Sacred Ground for example, a very common ability that's up in most team fights if the Kulev is alive. If he puts that where his team is, you are doing absolutely nothing in terms of damage output whilst putting yourself at a disadvantage (because you're trying to maximise his kit by creating shields).
Every character has a pretty large ttk duration, El Bastardo being one who survives more than most...supposedly. The thing is, in order to start producing those shields, you've almost got to compensate that for some lost health. Hard to explain without demonstrating, but how else are you going to produce shields without taking the frontline damage of the team? You can't poke in and out or sit on the Objective as effectively as the other two tanks or you'll lose your shields and have less health than a base Assassin health pool. The role of tank changes when you pick El Bastardo over the other two. I think you still need the traditional beefy tank AS WELL AS Bastardo...but Bastardo doesn't do nearly enough damage output to justify his pick in a DPS role
He doesn't do nearly enough damage to deal with a squishy. Unless you have a team backing you up as I mentioned at the beginning.
"...unless you have a team backing you up" is a counter point I could make for everything I'm writing here. Same applies to all the other characters. This is trying to judge solely as a character in his own right, which is difficult in such a team oriented game. You play right and have good synergy/chemistry as a team then I 100% agree that any character can look "Tier S" standard right now.
I've never really enjoyed the idea of a character that needs to do damage in order to maximise his kit either. I have no idea how he ended up being my most played, haha. A lot of the time, the best option isn't to just dive in and flail your machetes about. It's to assess who's low, who needs help, who needs taking out, prioritising, holding objectives, disengaging, etc etc. Rather than....ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK BECAUSE YOU MUST!1!1!!1!!
So....he lacks mobility. He lacks damage output. He lacks considerable survivability as he has to endanger himself in order to produce shields most of the time (risk vs reward fluctuates more often than you would like).
If you need to sustain an Objective Control point and you are dying too quickly and easily as a team....pick Buttercup or Makutu.
If you need more damage output....pick Nidhoggr (his high health pool plus the fact he can heal himself damaging burned enemies makes him a better version of El Bastardo IMHO).
If you need somebody mobile and harassing the backlines...don't use a Tank slot to fulfill this role....pick Daemon, Cass, Maeve...
Bit of a non-structured ramble but I hope you understand my perspective a bit more. Once again I don't think he deserves to be buffed or anything like that, I don't think any of the characters need fundamentally changing until at least a couple weeks after launch, then re-evaluate from there. It's nice to give everyone a bit of breathing space.
...And yes I think I remember recognising your name in-game which is awesome
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@x-AmberPrice Wow, great post. Very informative and helpful. It's definitely going to shape my perspective the next time I face Bastardo or play as him. Really, even if some may disagree, thank you for sharing. Are you sure you didn't play him for 50 hours rather than 30? Lol.
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Nice post. My fav is Gizmo and I played with her like 4 hours. But she need a good position for sure, maybe giving her 2 "launch pads" and if last a little more...
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@x-AmberPrice
I wasn't specifically targeting your tier list, but that's my fault for making such a general statement though. I do think Cass should be Tier B at least though! I played every character, but I had the most time on her. The problem with Cass is her strengths are as strong as her weaknesses... insane mobility, consistent roaming power, ok damage followed by very, very good supers... but she has no CC, can't hold a point to save her life, and doesn't have staying power in team fights. As long as your teammates fill those roles well enough, she's a great pick, very similar to Daemon in concept though Daemon tends to feel more intuitive and has a slightly simpler escape mechanism and CC so other players tend to like him more. Constantly listening to Daemon's talk about how easy Cass is to beat because they're fighting noobs lol, I stomped every Daemon I saw.But we're talking about El Bastardo! In a post just before yours, I elaborated on my impression of El Bastardo some more, and I think you'll find we agree on several points there as well.
Just to reiterate - I don't think he needs a buff or anything like that. I didn't have anyone in a "Tier D" in my list simply because I don't think anyone deserves to be there right now. The only character I singled out slightly was Maeve in "S"...but that's for another topic.
I'm curious about your opinion on Maeve, but yeah I wouldn't necessarily say he should be buffed just yet, but maybe some quality improvements are in order. El Bastardo probably seems strong to me because he's easy to pickup and understand, not in any deep way but in the "oh I use all of my abilities to chase and attack people" way that on a surface level comes naturally to most players. As skill level progresses though, I can really start to see how Tier D is fitting for him.
The ideal play-style to maximise his kit is certainly that of an aggressor or initiator.
Spot on. He's only useful if he's doing damage, because that gives him shields, which make it so he doesn't flinch and can stay in the fight to do more damage, and so on. I found he was harder to focus down than say Makutu (despite his tankiness, Makutu benefits from a hit and run style while focusing on peeling for allies, partially because he can't Evade at all to mitigate some of the hits), because the shields are more immediate and beneficial than the health regeneration, though it means that El Bastardo's tankiness in team fights also trails off faster as he is whittled down unless he's got the unkillable super ready or your healer is keeping you topped off. He's actually fairly easy to heal due to the shields only letting a some in at a time. The biggest problem with this logic, then, is that he's not designed to protect his healers, so heals aren't much of a guarantee, and to be fair nobody in the game can survive being focus fired on by 4 enemies... The only counter to that is Zerocool's initial Recharge burst or 1-Up and Miko's Life Force.
A big problem for me is how much significance his LEAP lacks. 9 out of 10 times you are using Leap to engage an enemy. Usually one that is too far away to damage with basic melee attacks and/or is on low health. But once you Leap onto an enemy, that enemy is usually looking to quickly disengage (because low health for example).
You bring up ranged fighters, so I think it's important to mention that they only have 2 bars of stamina, whereas melee fighters have 3. In theory, you should be able to keep pace with Gizmo and chase her, so long as you evade the Sucka in time. If she uses Bouncer, you might just need to back off, but if you go after her knowing she can use it then I'd try to save your leap to go after her. All in all, I feel like this makes things pretty equal, you both have a good chance to chase and escape... but that's what makes the Gizmo example kind of bad too, because Gizmo has terrible mobility, so what does that say about El Bastardo? Since he's designed to be hyper-aggressive, his ability to lock down enemies probably should be way better, because that's what he seems to be good for. In reality, that's what Buttercup does best. So I think I can agree that his kit doesn't seem to be doing everything it needs to do.
There are 2 things I can think of to handle this (before asking them to just change the character's design!). One is the mod that increases Death Spiral's speed by 15%, making it easier to track and catch up with that special. He has a lot of good mods, but that one pretty heavily helps to cover this weakness of his. Two, be willing to switch targets, quickly and often. As long as you're doing damage, you don't necessarily have to get a kill. Rely on your team some more and focus on disrupting the enemy team as much as possible as often as possible. Go for the closest target you can. Push every enemy you can out of the fight, even if it's only temporarily.
Is that ideal? Not necessarily... but it is in-line with my impression of him as an "aggro tank", he tanks by going around and raising his threat level such that he's too dangerous to ignore. This style of play most likely feels unsatisfying though, and it again relies on a decently good team that can both do its job AND handle one or two enemies coming after them. Maybe the comp most suitable for El Bastardo is one that can handle being attacked decently, but greatly appreciates the breathing room given to them when the enemies are constantly being pushed back. AKA, Maeve or Nidhoggr, who can both easily handle being targeted by 1 or 2 enemies, at least in the short term, and can even help him land a kill.
There's a ton of CC abilities in the game too, and I think MOST do more harm than good to him. Kulev's Sacred Ground for example, a very common ability that's up in most team fights if the Kulev is alive. If he puts that where his team is, you are doing absolutely nothing in terms of damage output whilst putting yourself at a disadvantage (because you're trying to maximise his kit by creating shields).
Not sure what you mean by the CC comment, but I will say El Bastardo seems particularly susceptible to CC, as it can result in a follow up melee combo while his shields are down making him flinch. As far as Kulev goes though, this is where object interactions come into play. If we assume El Bastardo's role in the fight is to change the positioning of the enemy team to your team's advantage, not to just get kills, Then the correct play is to always destroy the ward (or Gizmo's turrets, as the case may be!) so long as they're trying to hug that position. Not only can targeting the ward with Death Spiral destroy it quickly, it can push others off the ward if they don't want to stand next to you. All the while, you're still getting your shields because object damage works on Life Support.
I did this a few times while playing El Bastardo. I won't say I know if it was super effective without testing more, but my team did end up winning the team fight so maybe? In a way, any stationary enemies (like wards) are a boon for him. I tend to switch targets when fighting Kulev regardless of who I'm playing enemies. You attack Kulev, then when he shields himself you switch. If you destroy his ward and force him to shield himself, he's not doing anything to help him team stay alive. That Lucky Charm passive is a drop in the bucket (18 hp per 2s, not amazing range either).
Every character has a pretty large ttk duration, El Bastardo being one who survives more than most...supposedly. The thing is, in order to start producing those shields, you've almost got to compensate that for some lost health. Hard to explain without demonstrating, but how else are you going to produce shields without taking the frontline damage of the team? You can't poke in and out or sit on the Objective as effectively as the other two tanks or you'll lose your shields and have less health than a base Assassin health pool.
Yeah you're definitely not meant to sit on the objective, but by that same logic if there are no enemies on the objective then it's not being taken anyway. So hovering near the point and chasing enemies until they back off may be how he controls space... easier said than done, but there's something to be said about Leaping to a target, wailing on them until the evade away, then evading away yourself back to the point. Now you're at least 2 evade distances away, pretty close to being out of ranged attacks, and you have at least a little shield atm.
Again, not super ideal, but it would hold a point well as long as you take advantage of the health orbs occasionally to top off (and you should, everyone should. Learn where the health orbs are! I'd say that's Tip #2 to add on to your list, don't just rely on healers). I actually played Cass in a similar manner at times, despite her being a ranged attacker. Enemies would often track around walls so I couldn't finish them off because then I'd have to get close and get hit. Or just weave past their teammates and away. I COULD chase, but then I'd be in hot water. Once I learned to let go of kills in favor of the objectives I started to do a lot better. The game is combat-centric, but it's enough to push them off and not kill them most of the time. The objectives are always worth more points, you just have to fight to get them!
"...unless you have a team backing you up" is a counter point I could make for everything I'm writing here.
It's a moot point. Team chemistry/synergy is obviously very important, but we have to be able to isolate the discussion to a single character at times. I wouldn't shut down your points with that as an excuse. No matter how team-oriented this game is, individual skill is extremely important. The "team" is merely an amalgamation of individual skills working together, and it's such a shame how many people don't understand that just because they can't 1v4 like in other games (you know, maybe once in every 100 times they try it, and that 1% success rate convinces them they're such a good player /rant), but I think you get it.
I've never really enjoyed the idea of a character that needs to do damage in order to maximise his kit either. I have no idea how he ended up being my most played, haha. A lot of the time, the best option isn't to just dive in and flail your machetes about. It's to assess who's low, who needs help, who needs taking out, prioritising, holding objectives, disengaging, etc etc. Rather than....ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK BECAUSE YOU MUST!1!1!!1!!
Well then I think you understand the point I'm making better than I do. Attack attack attack IS the goal, but it's more important how and where and who the attack is based on and constantly reassessing that in order to be an effective aggro tank. Like, if two robbers broken into your house, your large attack dog isn't going to hold a shield in front of you and block knives and bullets, but you know that at least one of those robbers is going to be way, way too busy to come after you when you sick that good boy on them.
Again, though, I think that's what El Bastardo SHOULD be able to do, I'm just not convinced he's 100% suited for the job at the moment based on our discussion, which is why he may need a buff.
If you need to sustain an Objective Control point and you are dying too quickly and easily as a team....pick Buttercup or Makutu.
If you need more damage output....pick Nidhoggr
If you need somebody mobile and harassing the backlines...don't use a Tank slot to fulfill this role....pick Daemon, Cass, Maeve...All of these points are true. I wouldn't say El Bastardo does any of these things better than the characters you mentioned. This is why I find it funny Makutu is listed as the "disruption" fighter when he just isn't. El Bastardo is. I think he's designed to be the one that counters the defensive team with good zoning, because he gets in there and breaks them up. He's ideal for teams that want to be moving and targeting. Like... Miko, Nidhoggr, Maeve, and El Bastardo makes for a very good comp. None of them need to be tanked for directly, they just need breathing room to operate well. But El Bastardo may need a slight buff to make this aspect of him more readily apparent.
There are also a lot of mods that increase his damage resistance, and I mean a lot... definitely more than others. Stacking defensive mods catered to your play style may be what he needs, or just going two Heavy's and focusing on the damage mods instead to have higher threat by letting him just off-tank. If you'd like I could list all of his mods in this thread, maybe that would help?
Bit of a non-structured ramble but I hope you understand my perspective a bit more.
I think I do, you tell me.
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hey, a bit off-topic but private messages dont seem possible. sry.
i have watched most of your cass play on your stream (huge cass fan
), but since i am new and dont know the ingame mechanics very well i often didnt understand your reasoning behind many of you actions. also the quality wasnt the best at 720p and some artifacting going on. not your fault probably to shorten the wait until release and maybe even for your own reference, would you maybe care to write (or maybe even youtube if you prefer) an extensive cass guide?
like her role, when to use which attack, which skills, her combos, loadouts and maybe a bit about important game mechanics.i really would enjoy reading this coming from you to widen my understanding of the game and cass in general.
also i would like to now your reason for playing with a narrow camera as a default (or the self switching one)
pretty soon i used the "always far" one as it gave me much needed overview while fighting.
do you prefer the narrow camera while fighting for better parrying / dodging abilities?
(this question goes to all of you if you please, also the request for guides - i love reading this stuff for games i really enjoy)also i am sry for my potential bad use of language, i am from germany
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Thanks for the solid reply!
I do think Cass should be Tier B at least though!
I don't think any of the characters are too weak right now as I said previously. I do think she's a much more difficult character to play compared to others, certainly more difficult than Daemon as you suggested, however Cass is the character we've all been introduced to the latest so that may have some effect on this debate as well. Maybe, at least for me, I haven't experienced enough of her advanced gameplay when I've played as her, or even when I've played against her (or watched another play her for that matter). There's 2 main reasons why I put Cass so low:
1- The BIGGEST counter pick BY FAR in the game right now IMO is Maeve vs Cass. In fact, I don't really think there is another black & white counter pick for any character in the game at all, let alone one as strong as Maeve vs Cass. Everything hinges on Cass's mobility, and Maeve can take that all away with just her Cage. If she Siphons as soon as the Cage lands, the fact that Cass has the lowest health pool in the game means that she loses easily ~200 health - 1/3 of her health!! - before the Cage has even expired. You could make arguments for being skilled enough to dodge the Cage in the first place, or getting away from a Cage after it's expired by quickly Swooping/Hightailing away before a Siphon has finished it's full duration on you but most of the time that distance still isn't enough to break Siphon, and even if it was, Maeve can throw 20+ Cages a game with her eyes closed.
This is where the TEAMWORK trump card can work either way for this argument though. Have a healer nearby and you can be pocketed even when you're Caged so Siphon does minimal damage. On the other hand, Maeve tells her team to focus you and you're dead before the Cage even expires...from FULL HEALTH.
tl;dr Cage bad for bird
2- Daemon is a much better pick. Maybe slightly more subjective. But they play very similar roles I think. Assess from the outside, dive in and burst damage close range. Difference is, Daemon's kit is much better for both phases than Cass's kit is.
Assessing from the outside - Daemon has stealth so he can pounce completely unexpectedly whilst having 3 shurikens that slow and bleed the opponent doing pretty decent damage (especially with the mod boost, it's top 5 mods in the game IMO). Cass has a pretty minor ranged attack that is as effective as your opposing team allows it to be. The range is incredibly short, at least half Gizmo's minigun, which puts you in range of pretty much every close-quarter combat ability if they just evade once towards you.
Burst damage close range - Daemon's burst damage potential is deadly. Dash in from stealth, hit 3 out of 4 of your basic attacks, throw a shuriken to combo cancel and finish the full basic attack combo. That's HUGE damage potential, and very difficult to get out of. Cass can Swoop in dealing minor damage again and proceed to Rake. It does slightly more than her ranged damage but it feels quite easy to get out of, staggers you back per hit, launching you on the last (without a combo cancel as effective as Daemon's).
I think the play style design differs in the final phase. Cass is more fitted to using her extra Swoop to retreat whereas Daemon can take slightly more with that extra little health (and the mod to heal per basic attack hit is also very good IMO), with that difference being enough to have his Dash reset to achieve the same result as a Swoop.
Both Daemon and Cass can reach high ground with their respective passive abilities. The only thing she has over Daemon is her speed and how she doesn't need to mount up. Both characters have great Supers as well.
I'm curious about your opinion on Maeve
She's the ONE character that sticks out for me. It's a mix of how strong she is and how simple it is to maximise her strengths. Cage & Siphon is both deadly and simplistic. Only Maeve herself can ironically nullify all damage taken after being caught in a Cage by Vanishing and becoming invulnerable.
With every other character I can convincingly bring forward some sort weakness exploit. With Maeve, I seriously don't see a semi consistent approach to dealing with her? You've got to dedicate a member of your team to follow her all game in order to chase chase and chase until you catch her without her Vanish and hope you out-damage her.
I think her Vanish should ONLY be Invisibility and not Invulnerability as well. That way she can't just poof out of a close combat gangbang with 1hp. She'd have to rethink when it is or isn't suitable to just jump into a fight like pretty much every other character has to currently. Right now, as long as the cooldown is reset or nearly reset she has a free escape route. EVEN IF she can't find healing or get healing from a teammate while Vanished, she can just appear out of nowhere and start Siphoning you to heal herself lmao.
The only depth outside of the positioning/game sense/decision making (e.g. same depth every other character has), is coordinating with her team to maximise her Schadenfreude as much as physically possible.
...But we're talking about El Bastardo! ...(woozy)
I found he was harder to focus down than say Makutu
I agree. But that's only if you initiate HIM. If he has to initiate, he's putting himself in danger of being fired at by all 4 at the same time, that's where his shields feel like they're just postponing the inevitable death(stalling is good sometimes though).
All 3 tanks are disruptors really. It's best to ignore them as much as possible. You initiate them and you are falling into their strengths.
I think it's important to mention that they (ranged characters) only have 2 bars of stamina, whereas melee fighters have 3.
That's a good point in fairness. Even so, most characters have that additional traversal/disengage as well as their evades, whereas you've just used your traversal ability to engage in the first place. Gizmo bounces up to high ground and now SHE'S the aggressor and exactly where she wants to be whilst you NO LONGER HAVE your disengage ability (or evades if you've just chased her after Leap). You know what I mean? It's very chess-like.
but if you go after her knowing she can use it then I'd try to save your leap to go after her
It's beginning to get incredibly situational at that point though. Say she's super low health? You'd be silly not to Leap onto her regardless right? But you'd still not likely finish her off if she bounces above you. That's where the Leap just lacks so much significance IMO. You're better off playing El Bastardo in the Buttercup/Makutu role of being a lump, sitting on the objective or being a nuisance/disrupter and letting the opposing team initiate you if they are foolish enough. But Buttercup/Makutu fulfil the role much better...
he tanks by going around and raising his threat level such that he's too dangerous to ignore
When is he too dangerous to ignore though? If he was to continuously switch targets "just to deal damage" then I wish his damage was generally more stronger. I think again, if you wanted DPS you would just pick a character from the DPS category.
If we assume El Bastardo's role in the fight is to change the positioning of the enemy team to your team's advantage, not to just get kills, Then the correct play is to always destroy the ward (or Gizmo's turrets, as the case may be!) so long as they're trying to hug that position
This is a great comment and I agree 100%. That type of situation is certainly the best use of his Death Spiral.
HOWEVER...(and this links nicely to what I was saying earlier about being the initiator vs being initiated), it depends on the situation. If you are defending a point and the Kulev places the Sacred Ground in an aggressive manner so his team can push into it, you have great potential to be a big player here as you can death spiral in the middle of the fight and get rid of the Sacred Ground whilst earning shields hitting the enemies and sustaining the point with your team.
If it's the complete opposite and the enemy team are sitting on the objective and place the Sacred Ground defensively so YOUR TEAM has to push into it, it's going to be a lot harder to sustain yourself as in order to maximise shield potential you will have to dive straight in the middle whilst trying to get rid of the Sacred Ground
Kulev can place it surprisingly fast as well so sometimes it may not even be worth breaking. Just trying to target him instead may be the better option.
You attack Kulev, then when he shields himself you switch. If you destroy his ward and force him to shield himself, he's not doing anything to help him team stay alive. That Lucky Charm passive is a drop in the bucket (18 hp per 2s, not amazing range either).
Great comment. I know it was a separate point anyway but it just reinforces the fact El Bastardo doesn't need picking for situations like these, there are better picks.
So hovering near the point and chasing enemies until they back off may be how he controls space... easier said than done, but there's something to be said about Leaping to a target, wailing on them until the evade away, then evading away yourself back to the point. Now you're at least 2 evade distances away, pretty close to being out of ranged attacks, and you have at least a little shield atm.
Again, not super ideal, but it would hold a point well as long as you take advantage of the health orbs occasionally to top off (and you should, everyone should. Learn where the health orbs are! I'd say that's Tip #2 to add on to your list, don't just rely on healers)Definitely, and this is a solid tip again. But as you said straight after, you achieved this with Cass. I think a Tank needs to give a lot more in these situations. You probably have a much better chance of actually finishing off those enemies before they can track behind walls or far enough away from combat than an El Bastardo would. Tip #3 in our little list would be to mount up as much as possible and at every possible opportunity (for everyone but Cass lol). There have been plenty of times I've literally mounted in the middle of a team fight in order to anticipate someone moving away or to just give myself a bit more flexibility.
I think I do, you tell me.:)
It was a pleasure
I'll try and get a couple of full El Bastardo gameplays during the next Beta and do an analysis of sorts for better demonstration as I really enjoyed this conversation.
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@x-AmberPrice
Maeve
On the topic of Maeve, I played her a good bit in the alpha and some in the beta as well. I think the devs were aware of her strengths, because I can almost guarantee that the self-heal on her Siphon Life was nerfed. It's much less than the damage it deals, a little over 100 I believe maybe 150. Whereas her damage does over 400 with a full channel. Her basic attack is meh but her damage potential is already good without it. I have an insta-kill pick comp concept I want to try where you do Buttercup-Maeve-Kulev and some other damage like nidhoggr. Yank->Cage->Curse and blow all your damage on the target while you can, should be a very quick kill, probably before the enemy team can respond.
As far as her weaknesses go... well she does run out of abilities, they're just all of such high utility or threat you have to be ready for them. Dodge the Cage, though this isn't strictly required but it'll make a huge difference. Siphon Life needs to either be CC'd or you need to escape from its range immediately. Vanish has a very short duration, so it's generally possible to just figure out where she went and finish her off if she's low, but one of the DEFAULT mods increases its duration by 2s so I know it may not seem that way as people who just pick her up have a decent duration on Vanish. Not amazing like Daemon's stealth duration but definitely enough to get pressure off herself and reposition, especially with that invulnerability. Her supers are very dangerous as well, but I think they should all be in some way. Schadenfreude gunks things up though as she can really steam roll without you being able to focus her if you're not careful.
So yeah... all of her abilities are good, she can survive at least once after before focused fire, and its bad to ignore her in general because Cage and Siphon Life will really destroy someone. As for Cass vs Maeve... well I didn't really die to Maeve as Cass, but I also didn't really kill her. Cass can't interrupt the siphon, so she just has to get out of range, which she can do very easily. If you want to move back in and try to kill her you can, but unless Maeve is already somewhat low it's not a good idea to keep chasing and trying to dance around her abilities. Maeve is probably the only ranged fighter where it's a bad idea to try to melee her as Cass. So calling it a counter is accurate, but I also wouldn't say it's hopeless.
On the other hand, while it's not totally obvious, Miko counters Maeve for sure. Stasis and Kinetic Shield both counter siphon, and Maeve just can't take a point from her. Miko can save an ally who is being caged in the same way and even heal them. If Maeve gets close Miko punishes her. Miko can't chase though, so it doesn't feel like a counter when you're not killing them, but if Maeve's only choice is to back off I'd say it counts as a counter.
There's no other channeled ability outside of some supers that I would say deserve the same kind of CC attention either (like Whip Lash or Death Spiral), as channeling makes you immune to flinches (but I think they still get knocked back by the last melee attack). So it's the kind of thing you wait for if you have that. People who can interrupt channels with specials: Buttercup, Daemon, El Bastardo, Gizmo, Makutu, Miko, and Nidhoggr. AKA Yank, Sleep (Stealth will also de-target the siphon), Leap, Sucka, Barge (but NOT repellent), Stasis, Kinetic Shield (not CC but blocks beams), and Boomitar. For everyone else, the best option is to turtle up or get out of range immediately.
Maeve is a strong Carry, she's also easy to play relatively speaking, so I'm curious to see how it pans out for her as players get better at the game in general once they know all of this better.
Daemon
I classify Daemon as a Carry. In fact, the only Damage fighter I wouldn't classify as a Carry is Cass, which I'll get to in a moment. So it's not super surprising he does more than her, cause his damage feels much more normal in comparison to Nidhoggr, Gizmo, and Maeve. Stealth/Sleep also has so much versatility, and he's the only Damage besides Cass that excels in roaming and chasing, so he feels very satisfying to play as because he can wrack up kills that way. It just seems more obvious to pick him than Cass, though I will argue that his supers are not nearly as good.
For one, Shadow Strike is immobile and splits damage, so it doesn't really feel like an AOE. It IS strong though and the instant invulnerability is a huge plus for sure. However, Blade Dance has the highest aoe damage output in the game, easily. This becomes especially obvious if you know the trick for a lot of the AOE hit boxes... most of them are tall cylinders that ignore walls and floors. So you can be above or below the enemy team and hit them. This sneaky use of Blade Dance is very, very effective, as you can be on the floor above them and tracking their movements. Shadow Strike can do that to some extent, but not as well. If it's the invulnerability you're after, Dive Bomb can send Cass right out of the fight, like all they way out if she wants, and even pick on a fleeing target by stunning them and dealing decent damage.
Death Mark is good but it's also slightly clunky as it is. I talked about it in my suggestions post, but I think it should insta-cast and be usable in stealth. It forces you to commit to a target, and if they're not already low, which means you're not getting the bang for your buck, you probably won't land the kill in its time frame. While Daemon is good at chasing, its not so good that you'll kill a fleeing target before the time runs out. Unless you're getting multiple uses of Death Mark off in some kind of ultra-stellar play, you're unlikely to actually get more than a 300-400 damage out of it (I believe it's a 50% damage boost, so a third of the target's health assume you 100 to 0 them). If someone is helping you or they're already low, it'll be even less, so even if that lets you get off multiple casts the total damage doesn't increase that much or at all. Considering that it forces you to play hyper-aggressive and locks you into a target, the damage output by itself isn't that impressive. Shadow Strike can easily do that much damage or more and has more defensive and zoning utility as well.
So I would say Cass has better supers... but Daemon just feels like a better pick if your goal is to get kills. Which brings me back to...
Cass and El Bastardo
Since we mostly agree on EB I'll skip to where I say, yeah, it DOES feel like other fighters do his job better. Buttercup tanks and controls better, Nidhoggr damages and dives better... but whereas they are more specialized, he has a unique blend of those attributes that allows him to be played differently. Which is why I put him in the same boat as Cass. I have a (tentative) classification system I've been working on for characters that puts them into buckets. This is just my creative attempt at rethinking team composition, so it's by no means perfect.
There's the positional class: Frontline, Backline, Diving, and Roaming.
And the strategic class: Carry, Buddy, Zoner, and Disruptor.To me... Cass is a Roaming Disruptor and El Bastardo is a Diving Disruptor. Now, my use of the term "disruptor" is a bit vauge as it's not how its been used before when discussing this game, so there may be a better word for it. To define it the best I can... their job is to break up the enemy team by picking apart its edges and weak points. Their goal is not to land the kill (Carry), to hold the objective (Zoner), or to protect their team (Buddy), though they CAN do all of those things to some degree. Their goal is to merely disrupt and create an advantageous situation for their team to work by being hard to kill, hard to distract, and hard to ignore. Since others do damage and tank roles better, it's best to think that isn't their sole purpose to begin with.
Mix up your targets, pay attention to weaknesses and those who get out of position, never chase unnecessarily, and be ready to back up or cover for an ally as needed.
To elaborate, here's my strategy for trying to play these two once the beta is back and I can test my hypothesis.
Hard to Kill: El Bastardo IS hard to kill, it's just a little too tempting to dive in head first before your team is ready to back you up. But if you DO jump in 1v4, a Leap and Empower will net enough shield for you to immediately evade back out of there without getting hurt. EB has more survivability when his CDs are up, so when the whole team turns to you just blow your CDs and back off. Cass is impossible to catch, so just don't put yourself in reach of too many targets.
Hard to Distract: They run? Whatever, unless it's an easy kill back off, and if they're playing cat and mouse you can just stay back until CDs are up. Do multiple people decide to come at you? Back off, don't wait until you're already low to do so. The moment someone turns their back on you again you can strike back.
Hard to Ignore: Become the master of hit and run, be a coward, play cat and mouse. You DO deal damage so go for whatever is easiest by finding the weak points.
This is a bit different from what I said about EB before, but the same principle applies. Don't commit to a target, and so long as only 1 or 2 are looking at you you can be brazen, then just back off and use your team as cover if its gets dangerous, then run back in once they've turned away.
Is this going to work? Is this better than just having better damage or zoning? Honestly, I don't know. It's a hybrid role that requires flexibility and an eye for the battlefield. Their unique blend of abilities makes them pretty great for that. Buttercup just can't jump and dash around like he can. Nidhoggr just can't turn his back on the fight as easily. Cass also has the benefit of being able to do things like be an impossible to catch power cell carrier, so she feels a little better as a niche pick than him, but El Bastardo also has his virtues in this area.
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On the topic of Cass, how do you see her ranged attack effecting her role in a fight?
A few people here in the office have her as a main, and what I notice when they play her is how she never leaves a fight. Daemon, in my opinion, is a more effective assassin for similar reasons you’ve mentioned here. By contrast though once daemon is done with his target players mostly find an escape, whereas Cass I never see leave the frontline!
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@TwangyGuitar193 said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
On the topic of Cass, how do you see her ranged attack effecting her role in a fight?
A few people here in the office have her as a main, and what I notice when they play her is how she never leaves a fight. Daemon, in my opinion, is a more effective assassin for similar reasons you’ve mentioned here. By contrast though once daemon is done with his target players mostly find an escape, whereas Cass I never see leave the frontline!
Uh... I'll try to understand what you're asking, but I'm not totally sure.
I wouldn't say Cass is a frontliner though. She skirts the fight and picks on targets. Hovering near your teammates is a good idea, but you can't do too much to protect them and you really should be going after the enemy support on the other side. If you're claiming she never leaves the fight, then its because she plays it so safe she never gets hurt.
Her ranged attack is what you'll usually use, because getting close poses a lot of risks to her kit. But against some ranged characters it certainly helps to get into melee and hound them down so they can't fire back at you, or to flinch an enemy hounding your support since that's the only CC you can offer. Her Rake puts you in some interesting situations, but she is through and through a ranged attacker at base.
Daemon also plays the roaming, go after the healer role, but he's not one to harass and kite like Cass, he wants to get in and get the kill or get out. So yeah he definitely doesn't have the same staying power, but he does more damage and generally doesn't need to leave a fight for long. I guess you could say it's because he's melee and not ranged, but his entire kit is designed around him being melee so it works. Cass would be viable in melee too with Stealth, Sleep, Shift, and Shuriken. In the same way, while Cass being ranged does affect her role, her kit is designed to accommodate that and lets her excel at roaming. There's no way she could do that without the absurd mobility of Swoop and Hightail on top of her evade.
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Dodge the Cage, though this isn't strictly required but it'll make a huge difference
I just think it's such a difficult ability to dodge, at least consistently. Of course it's possible to dodge it, but the reaction time it requires is incredibly minimal. You have to evade right on the audio cue otherwise you still wont evade far out enough for it to miss you. In a big team fight with a lot going on that can be extremely difficult. Given the fact it's so deadly and provides so much value every time it lands, I don't think there's enough ways of getting out of it or avoiding it entirely. Like I said, the only non-Super ability that can nullify damage given once caught inside the Cage is Maeve's Vanish.
I think it's more of a lack of alternatives to counter it rather than it being OP.
So calling it (Maeve vs Cass) a counter is accurate, but I also wouldn't say it's hopeless.
It was probably just more from my experience then. Both playing as Cass against Maeve, and vice versa. It's the first time I've played the game where I regularly noticed complete swap-offs because the match-up was landsliding so much in one direction. I think more than anything it's because Cass relies so heavily on mobility, paired with the shortest ttk of any character. Land an ability like Cage which is borderline uncounter-able as discussed above and that's why I think the match-up is as strong as it is and part of the reason why Cass is so low and Maeve is so high in a tier list.
On the other hand, while it's not totally obvious, Miko counters Maeve for sure.
You raise good points again but I think it's more of the Cage & Siphon combo rather than Siphon on its own. You Cage a Miko and, sure, she can put down her barrier but it doesn't nullify melee attacks from other characters. Likewise with Stasis, it might nullify Maeve's Siphon but again, if she's Caged you, she's still susceptible to all other incoming attacks from your team with a giant visual target even if you're not communicating
Even solely in a 1v1, Maeve has the added mobility with Vanish to get away if needed. They both need supporting characters to take each other out in this match up. Again that's where Cage gets massive value.
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On Cass, I would have to agree that her Supers are slightly superior in theory but I think Daemon's aren't bad either. I posted this elsewhere but in my experience, the majority of the time, Supers have been more of a "get myself out of trouble" card. It's why I use Dive Bomb on Cass and Shadow Strike on Daemon personally. Both Supers save me momentarily if I am being hounded. On the other hand, Blade Dance on Cass and Death Mark on Daemon (even Shadow Strike on occasion) can be that extra tick of damage that allows me to finish a kill. Rather than some giant game-changing team wipe, I think there's a lot of value in deciding what Supers you use based off play style, and even as a counter to a method you've died to multiple times. That's why I ultimately switched from Blade Dance to Dive Bomb with Cass because I felt like I needed that extra mobility option to get out of fights alive more consistently!
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Not much to say on the last bit, I like the characterisations you've given and agree mostly! I'm looking forward to playing El Bastardo again in the next Beta for sure.
On the topic of Cass, how do you see her ranged attack effecting her role in a fight?
A few people here in the office have her as a main, and what I notice when they play her is how she never leaves a fight. Daemon, in my opinion, is a more effective assassin for similar reasons you’ve mentioned here. By contrast though once daemon is done with his target players mostly find an escape, whereas Cass I never see leave the frontline!For me personally, I like to sit on the outskirts of the battle and support fire with my Ranged. It's not massive damage but it chips away nicely. If the enemy team is preoccupied or doesn't focus you, you can get some nice damage off. When I spot someone with less than half HP remaining, that's where I'll Swoop in and Rake from close range. If they use some sort of traversal ability to get away, I'll use the second Swoop to stay close, keep up the pressure and continue to land as many Rakes as possible. Once I'm low, I'll use Hightail to get away, or even the Dive Bomb Super (that I have paired with the heal 60 per second while in the air which is very effective imo). I'll then make the most of her speed to disengage entirely where they would have to board up to chase me. It's important to know the health locations on each map so you can circle around them as efficiently as possible too.
So I think when you say you never see her leave the frontline in your experience, it's because she can keep disengaging from the fight due to her high mobility, and then heal herself up from the pickups. She's constantly in and out if not dealt with
I think a lot of it comes down to her not really being a priority in a lot of fights, especially if she's just doing chip damage with her Ranged attack on the outskirts. But when she dives in she can be a really menace.
Maeve is a super strong pick as discussed above. She negates her mobility essentially. As well as that, I think a lot of people don't make the most of the fact that you don't need to have lost any health to set the health packs on their respawn timers, so whenever you're near one it's always a good idea to pluck it so it might be unavailable to a disengaging Cass. How many times have you seen an enemy crawl onto a health pack with 1HP remaining...I know I have plenty of times
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Cass should easily be an s rated character she's way to versatile to be seen as only a A rank, she excels at both long and close range has great abilities to escape, pretty much counters all tanks since she can hammer at tanks from a range and most people that are ranged end up just getting torn apart since she can then turn to close range and stun with her melee attacks, best all rounder imo
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@AmazingVector As a Gizmo main. She has some of the most diverse utility, some of the best escapability and maybe the highest sustained DPS in the game if you use her correctly. Using her jump pad to get to the high ground and placing her turrets on spots difficult to reach is very important and can change the tide in a fight. Using her Sucka grenade is both good for sucking people into a ult combination right into Nid or Daemon ult and for catching them trying to run away. Using it manually is definitely better than locking on as well because you can suck multiple people in at once, or try and read on where a character will go. Don't even get me started on her mech. Her flamethrower melts people fast and her chaingun is just a stronger version of her basic attack.Very good for crowd control and initiating team fights with. In fact, multiple times I have initiated with her mech at the end of games and stalled and survived long enough around point for the team to catch up from respawn and I have singlehandedly won games like that.
Her long range also makes her good at picking off enemies at low health in the most crucial parts of battle, including enemies trying to run away.
As for escape options. She has some of the best in the game when using her Sucka grenade to stall enemies chasing you, putting down turrets to also stall and using the jump pad to get to places that only Zero Cool, Daemon, Cass etc can get to. By the time they catch back up, the Sucka and Turret cooldowns will be back and you rinse and repeat. Putting all of these in conjunction, she can escape nearly every character. If not escape completely, at least back to her team for support.
Her 3 dashes also make her escapability that much better.
I've played Gizmo since beta 1. She is high A-tier at LEAST. I have no idea why you have her as the worst character in the game.
But yeah, just my two cents on Gizmo.
GIZMO SLANDER ISN'T ALLOWED.
Will anybody else defend her? Am I lone wolfing this?
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Though I agree with most of the standings in your rank system, I strongly disagree with your slights against Baron/Kulev. He is an absolute beast with a ton of potential as most of his abilities can be self, friendly, or enemy cast. His damage potential is quite astounding for a support character as well.
Maybe I am too invested in the character. I see you mentioned baseline stats. I'm assuming that means you didn't dabble too much into the rune/power possibilities? Even without, but quite more powerful with one or two new runes. I'm routinely able to 2v1 or 3v1 depending on the build I'm running and the comp of the attackers.
I will say, my true love still lies with Maeve though. She's a powerhouse once you power up her 'Schadenfreude.' With that being said, there are quite a few games where I end up switching to Kulev from Maeve for the clutch wins. From what I've seen, a lot, of the few people who play support players, aren't that great. A lot of horrible positioning and, even worse, diving!
Hope to see you all in game soon!!
