Power Cells Strategies Abused
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@ivowns
Yeah I'd argue it's the only consistent counter to his infinite stealth in Power Cells, but it's tied down to 1 specific Super on 1 specific character. Even then, it doesn't last that long, and if Daemon can just survive the duration of Stalker then you're completely out of counters again until you regain your Super.
Cass collecting cells for example is good, but land any sort of cc stun on her and she's dead if she's alone.
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@x-AmberPrice said in Power Cells Strategies Abused:
@ivowns
Yeah I'd argue it's the only consistent counter to his infinite stealth in Power Cells, but it's tied down to 1 specific Super on 1 specific character. Even then, it doesn't last that long, and if Daemon can just survive the duration of Stalker then you're completely out of counters again until you regain your Super.
Cass collecting cells for example is good, but land any sort of cc stun on her and she's dead if she's alone.
It's a matter of strategy, your team has to pick the right characters to counter the enemy team. If they have a Daemon, consider to have one too and maybe a Miko with Stealth.
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@ivowns
It's a pretty stale meta then if someone is hoarding cells with Daemon and you have to pick 1 character and use 1 Super or else you lose unless the Daemon messes up.
A lot of the time the value is in how spontaneous it can happen. I don't think a lot of Daemon players strategise from the beginning of the match to passively collect cells all game and not fight at all. You can just suddenly end up with a bunch of cells after a team fight, then all you have to do from there is disengage and sit in stealth until an opportunity arises to sneakily hand in. You might not have time to switch to Miko and wait for her Super to charge every time, and again, even if you do, it's not guaranteed you're gonna catch him. He could be the other side of the map. He can keep himself alive reasonably well too, e.g. Shift Strike, slow with Shurikens, Shadow Strike invulnerability. Like Cass, you have to cc stun him once you've Miko Stealth'd to really begin to guarantee the kill.
It's just a lot of what ifs and situational circumstances. My opinion hasn't changed in that it is just a really cheesy "strategy" that shouldn't live alongside the many great strategies you can pull off that require more than 1 press of a button and putting your feet up.
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literally neither are a problem. Especially the daemon thing. Not sure if xbox players cant see or hear invisibility but daemon is clear as day for me. Makutu thing probably gonna change with the rework anyways. This post just seems like someone that is frustrated with their solo Q experience.
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@MyOldXbox said in Power Cells Strategies Abused:
@Evade-This5965 said in Power Cells Strategies Abused:
Sorry I just... really don't agree. First of all, if the enemy team is able to horde all the power cells, consider that it's either cause you're losing team fights or your team isn't gathering them in the first place, the latter of which is a huge problem and you deserve to lose.
The Makutu strategy really threw me for a loop when I saw it. I'm not totally against it though - it's a valid strategy, but what it needs right now is a solid counter. I THINK Mekko's bubble super will work on invulnerable targets, which will be a great counter setup. You also only need to run it if Makutu is going the mod for Can't Touch Us which increases the duration (I've tried it without the mod, doesn't work!), so it's not like it's every time you go Power Cell Collection. So if that's the case when Mekko comes out I won't have a problem with it. It is a VERY strong strategy though, and it's not easy to deal with at all.
I'm not concerned about the Daemon thing at all. The fact that they're able to win while you're 4v3 the entire time tells me your team is just doing very poorly. If you manage to get even half the cells and then are winning every teamfight, there's nothing the Daemon can do by hiding the entire game. Also, there already exists a counter for this in terms of abilities, so get Stalker. Even if you don't run Miko, you really should ALWAYS be watching secondary points when they open up and hovering on them to stop turn-ins. That has nothing to do with Daemon, ANY character can sneak a turn-in if you're not paying attention, and by the time they're turning in it's way too late to run over and stop them (unless you're Maeve with peek-a-brew!). So I will never agree that this is a problem.
Also, am I the only one who plays this game that can see stealthed characters?? If I'm already chasing a Daemon and he uses stealth there's a solid chance he's not getting away from me if I have something I can use quickly. He moves pretty fast though so there's that. But they can't do anything while stealthed, so the second they pop up, map vision is often so forgiving you can tell where they are anyway. Or just look at the disappearing power cell canisters. The cooldown on stealth is massive, so you have plenty of time to go try and catch him with your team the moment he pops up to grab cells.
There's actually a rather advanced form of this strategy I just realized. So you drop all your power cells when you go back to base right? You can focus on gathering with your whole team, pass off it all to a Daemon, then do this strat. There is some methods to deal with that though. I still think it's fairly easy to win in this situation if all the Daemon is doing is hiding like a loser, but it's a good way to put all your power cells on a Cass or Daemon if you're looking for a free turn in opportunity because the enemy isn't paying attention to the other objective - which is their own fault.
I wish to promote strategy in this game, so I want more valid strategies like these that also have decent counterplay. It should be your own fault for falling for it. In Daemon's case that's true, in Makutu's case... not so much but that might work itself out or need to be nerfed.
I agree with the majority of this post. I've encountered the Makutu strategy a few times already and I'm not even convinced it's problematic enough to warrant change. The focus in Power Cell shouldn't be all about the team fights exchanged at the point of delivery. If you're anticipating a Makutu play, then cut the enemy team off and hold some choke points to prevent them from even getting to a delivery zone in the first place. As for the Daemon strategy, I'm not the least bit concerned about it. I would actually prefer if most of my matches were spent as a 3v4 with a loner roaming around carrying 10+ cells. And nope, no problem on my end seeing invisible targets. Worth a mention - I also believe Bastardo cannot be interrupted while using his Unkillable Super although I could be wrong. Haven't encountered that enough yet and I'm unsure if some things can still affect him.
Literally explained how to counter the makutu strat right here in simple terms. Now if your solo Q team isnt doing this then there isnt much you can do other than be more aggressive/proactive for the cells during collection phase to deny makutu. I hope other people can understand that the delivery phase isnt the only phase and collection is just as important.
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@x-AmberPrice You're right, I apologise, I was rather frustrated with the game and NT in general and used you as a way to vent and take out frustration, so again, my apologies my dude.
As for Daemon, it's quite simple to deal with him, if there's 2 hand in points and he's hoarding cells, then one of your team needs to be at the off point to deal with him. Also his stealth is easy to counter, if you can spot his shimmer then any ranged can knock him out of stealth, if not there are abilities like Bastardo's Empower which automatically deals damage in a globe(?) around him, which will pop Daemon out of stealth. Ultimately, it just takes a bit of thinking and implementing a basic strategy to deal with the Daemon. As a Daemon player myself I don't go for the horde the cells playstyle, as I find it really boring, and am not a fan of carrying a lot of cells, but I do normally shutdown enemy Daemon's that do try this strategy.
Cass on the other hand is way more mobile, sure some cc does shut her down, and again most Cass players just aren't very good with her, with only a handful being able to play her to her full potential, like our good buddy Gunked here. As I have seen multiple times either in match or watching Gunked he's a really slippery player and is hard to lock down or chase to an off point as again Cass is just extremely mobile. But then again, the same arguement does arise for dealing with Cass as it does for Daemon, just need to have someone at the off point to stop her hand in, the problem there though is she can get back to the rest of the team faster than anyone else, and has a hugely impactful ultimate, so even if say a Maeve catches her at an off point, she's just gonna run after the cage drops, IF it hits her, and rejoin the team fight while Maeve is mounting up and will get there later.
As for the Makutu cheese, you need to hard engage him before hand in point comes up, so he doesn't get a chance to cheese hand in on point. Or just horde all the cells yourself, so he becomes even more useless. Personally I don't like Makutu on cells as the only thing he really brings is the hand in cheese, and is easy to deal with before hand in phase.
Also @Gunked on console you cannot see the shadows, but the shimmer is still there, so Daemon is harder to spot for us console plebs
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I think there's just certain situations where these 2 strategies can literally be "abused" to cheese a win that feels incredibly unrewarding, rather than something you can pull off every match if you strategise from the start.
I actually made this thread during release week, so nearly 2 months ago. I'm not encountering either strategy as much as I used to but I think that's more because it's pretty boring to pull off consistently. As mentioned more recently in this thread by you and others, there are ways to stop it, whilst also remaining almost unstoppable in certain circumstances. There are still some games that feel incredibly cheated out of, being in solo queue is irrelevant. Personally, I still don't think either deserve a place in the game but it's very much my experience vs yours so we'll agree to half agree and half disagree
I think if I use that argument with the Daemon strategy then it's only fair I apply it to Cass. There are certain situations she can be effective too, even more so by certain players like you said, so I definitely get your point. I feel like, with Cass, it's much more skill based. Whereas with the Daemon + Makutu strategies, there's not nearly as much skill involved in my opinion. Hence the "cheese"
In regards to Daemon, I play on a standard xbox one, on a TV, on wifi, so probably the worst possible set up. I can only see Daemon if he's literally within Buttercup's width of me otherwise he's completely invisible. There are definitely abilities like El Bastardo's Empower that can easily de-cloak him, but it's usually only effective once you've seen him enter stealth, otherwise he could be hiding absolutely anywhere around the map.
I think it's been proven that some find it a problem, whilst it may not be a problem for you, it's not because people are "frustrated at their solo queue experience".
I find it ironic you think I am frustrated with my solo queue experience when you literally report people on your team that have just contributed to winning a match because they weren't up to your "standards". I don't get the ego at all. I get being frustrated at matching with new players who make it very difficult to enjoy the match. I get the general video game rage. I don't get constantly being toxic to everyone, regardless of whether you've even win or not, and the players in the lobby aren't within your circle of players.
We are such a small community that is becoming smaller and smaller everyday. One of the pros of playing as many solo queue matches as I have is that you hear a lot of opinions on the game from people in voice chat and learn a lot about how the community are feeling. I think it's extremely telling that the most frequent thing I've heard personally is how many toxic players people encounter, and how many automatically think they're better than everyone in the lobby and are never ever to blame. We all make misplays. We all have our own reasons to back certain plays. We all have our own opinions from our perspective of the match.
It's not just you but it breeds from other players acquainted with you. It has genuinely affected my experience on the game as I don't play it nearly as much as I used to and it's not because I don't enjoy the game itself anymore. I'm tired of dealing with egos and toxicity in the majority of matches I play. I know it isn't specific to Bleeding Edge either but I genuinely don't think I've played a game where it's been this much of an issue.
The Alpha was the golden period for me because people played to have a good time. Nobody cared that the people on their team weren't perfect. We'd just queue up again. We still had very competitive games, in fact I'd argue more so than present day Bleeding Edge. The difference was that there was never some self righteous perfect player spamming text chat or shouting down the mic or standing in spawn to prove a petty point or jumping off the map and purposely throwing just because of egos.
Very off topic but it was a rant I needed.
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I agree something should be done but i think nerfing the duration of his ult or removing perma invisibility will set a bad tone of caving in for the slightest problems for the game. I think fixing stealth to reveal when interacting with cells such as picking up or turning it reveals you in stealth.
Then for makuta just make it to where you cant turn in while ultimate is in use but not just for makuta but everyone. Like gizmo can't turn in during mech or meeko cant during his sonic wave.
This way it can seem more of a healthy fix to the game and not a targeted hard nerf to makuta and daemon. However they choose to fix it i think it will be great long if it's not aimed to make the game stop being fun because perma stealth is a really popular fun mod for people. (I think this as a person who never played even a minute of Daemon)
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I think seeing Daemon can simply be easier or harder depending on your monitor settings. Some PC players already got their shit set to funky settings to get past "invisible" things in other games. It's kind of like cheating but not ha! I can almost never see the shimmer but I can see the shadow.
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@x-AmberPrice I see your points but I just can't see either of them as broken. They are legit strategies in my opinion and totally counterable. In Daemon's case, he can be a total liability if he gets caught out. It's a high risk high reward strategy. In relation to his mod, his stealth lasts long enough without it so I really don't see it as that big of an advantage. Especially when you consider he comes out of it if he intends to be any help in a team fight. If an enemy Daemon happens to be running it, that means they gave up one of their 3 mod slots specifically so they can basically do the same thing but they don't have to worry about a duration. Really you can counter this, not by focusing Daemon, but by simply paying attention to the objectives and then react if someone catches out the Daemon. Not necessarily kill him, but keep him from from scoring. You stall him long enough, chances are he'll get caught out, lose like 15+ cells for his team and basically throws the game.
As for Makutu's Can't Touch Us, it does require timing and coordination to make the most of it. If someone pulls it off then fair play to them for making very good use of their SUPER, you know, the big cooldown ability that's supposed to enable big plays. If their team manages to pull that off, then they have outplayed you and earned the win. Just because something works doesn't mean it's breaking the game. In this case, best thing to do is probably keep their team split so that the pinatas don't get the chance to succeed a full delivery while invulnerable. Tough but doable. Especially if the Makutu involved isn't running the mod to increase duration.
I feel that these mostly seem overpowered because they are the first to offer strong strategies for securing objectives. And who knows, they may not even be of any use in potential gamemodes NT might release. Or maybe new fighters will have kits that make it easier to counter these strategies.
Ultimately, you're sounding like a sore loser when you're basically taking issue with evasive Daemon is evasive and the support tank is doing support tank things. I know they are both very strong tactics and can be very hard to deal with but again, counterable and thus, not game-breaking.
I wanna finish off my remarks with this...I understand if you disagree with me, that's ok and I really hope it doesn't effect your opinion of me as a player negatively. I really respect you as a player. Whenever I see you on the enemy team, I know I'm in for a good challenge and I always enjoy our matches, even when you and your team slap me and my team into oblivion.
EDIT
I only just noticed how old this post is. To be clear, I was strictly responding to the original post. Catching up now to be sure I didn't make myself sound like an idiot. -
@MisfitBanjax
Daemon:
I disagree and don't think there is a counter at all. Again, it's more of a spontaneous thing rather than Daemon passively breaking cell canisters all game. Unless you get steamrolled, you're likely to team wipe the enemy at least once in a match, or at least get a considerable amount of picks, so Daemon can just scoop up all those dropped cells and wait until 2 points are open in the safety of his infinite invisibility. It's irrelevant that the team are now essentially down to a 3v4 because it's Daemon that's holding all the cells, the fights don't really matter unless they each die 8+ times. If you dedicate someone to standing at/near either hand in point, it's incredibly easy to get distracted, or forcibly become distracted by your teammates. There is no fun at all in spending the whole game trying to goose chase and look for an invisible Daemon, it becomes a completely different game and not for the better. The distance between the hand in points are pretty lengthy as well. When a Daemon can just pop up right on top of a hand in point and trigger a 5 second countdown for you to do anything before you lose the game, it can be difficult to stop him in time, especially if you are melee focused. With any other character, you can track through walls and see them on the minimap that they are heading to a point which gives you a lot more time to react.
The reason why the mod itself is an issue is because it is literally infinite, you can be as patient as possible without revealing yourself. Without the mod, the invisibility doesn't even last the duration of either phase, and the cooldown is pretty long. You have plenty of time to focus the enemy Daemon - aka there is actually a counter.
Makutu:
There is absolutely 0 timing and coordination involved with this strategy. You walk up to the delivery zone, press your Super button and win the game. If the cells are spread out amongst your team a little more, then you can either run back into spawn and give your cells to Makutu to make things easier, or it's not difficult to just stand next to Makutu before he's about to hand in so you can benefit from his Super too. Supers should definitely feel significant, I agree. And his Can't Touch Us Super can be very significant, for example, body blocking a Toil and Trouble. But being able to stand on the delivery zone in the middle of a teamfight and the enemy team can do absolutely nothing to stop him from handing in is ridiculous and goes against the core of the game. You shouldn't be able to do that at all.
Nothing needs to change about his Super. Only prevent him (and others) from handing in cells whilst in his Super. Maeve can't hand in cells while Vanished, it's essentially the same thing.
There is also no stopping you from going into spawn once you have a decent amount of cells and switching to either Daemon or Makutu, making the strategy even more difficult to counter than it already is. Makutu's Can't Touch Us takes around 2.5 minutes to charge, so if you prepare in advance and switch during the collection phase, you can have your Super during the next delivery phase.
I am not trying to be undermining but how many times have you encountered either strategy? I think there becomes a point where you have either won with it or lost against it so many times that it becomes an absolute chore. I have criticised Daemon's infinite stealth in Power Cells since early Alpha and I still feel the same way. Makutu's Can't Touch Us strategy only became a thing in the Beta and that one is far worse imo.
It has absolutely nothing to do with being a sore loser when I have benefited from both strategies many many times myself. The original post is old but I have created similar posts that are even older. I take issue because it negatively affects the overall gameplay experience in my opinion. There are so many great strategies you can pull off, but these 2 take very little effort, are extremely cheesy and can feel very unfair at times.
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@x-AmberPrice Ok, very good argument. I concede. To be honest I haven't encountered it much and I totally forgot about the whole dropping cells at spawn thing.
I guess I had a bias in this discussion because I love cheese, but to be fair that's only really enjoyable when it's a rare occurrence due to difficulty pulling off so I really should have kept that in mind.
That said in the case of Makutu, I feel he's underappreciated and was hyped to see a very strong use for him.
However, at the end of the day, you've been playing since Alpha and I have to respect that.
I just hope that however the devs approach a fix for this, it doesn't take away from those characters being super evasive and support tanky respectively.
