Let's Discuss The Parry System
I thought about waiting for the beta to end before making this post. However, I figured I'd start a discussion about our thoughts on the Parry System. I wanted to know what y'all think about it as of now.
To refresh, here are the changes stated in the patch notes:
We’ve given the parry mechanic a slight buff, since many players reported the payoff did not correspond to the difficulty of executing the move.
Enemies are staggered for longer following a successful parry.
A successful parry generates ½ a bar of stamina.
We’ve also made the decision that only Fighters with an Evade ability can parry. This means Buttercup and Makutu cannot parry. The parry interfered with their unique defensive abilities, and since neither can be flinched by basic attacks, there is no clear benefit to them having it.
Based on the patch notes, I can only assume that the main intention of the parry system is simply a last-ditch effort when you're out of stamina. At least, that's what I'm getting so far. Even if you parry someone who has full stamina, they can still bypass that staggered state by. It's sort of the same thing from the first closed beta. The ½ a bar of stamina is okay but I'm generally going out of my way to parry. I leave the dodging for when I'm trying to escape from a Gizmo, Maeve, Cass, etc.
If this is the route we're going with this system, then that's fine. The last thing I would ever want is for this game to turn into a turtle fest. However, I'm honestly trying to figure out how to use the parry system "the right way".
If we're not going that route and can change the design up a bit then here's my proposal. My personal issue has never been about stagger. It's more-so the ability to still dodge out after being parried. It's already a small window and tough to pull off by most accounts. I already know that my suggestion won't work for Makutu, Buttercup, and Mekko (totally understandable). However, for the characters who can dodge... maybe their stamina bar could time out briefly (not too long; don't wanna go crazy lol). Just enough time to properly give players a big payoff. At the same time, you'd be giving the other player the chance to try and parry too. This could create a possible back and forth type of thing. Though both players' stamina bars would be inactive. That way parrying could possibly become a better tool than it seems now. But again, just throwing stuff out there.
I'd be interested to hear what others have to say; agree, disagree, etc. Just trying to start a discussion
I will say that through my many hours of playing, I've only ever been parried about twice. I literally went around actively testing how many would parry by playing a lot of Makutu and infinite-slapping everyone, easily the most parry-able move, no one bothered parrying though. I've tried using it many times myself, sometimes to good use, other times I've made a situation worse. Definitely a learning curve there though.
I think it's been added as a minor feature with the primary intention to help reduce being stun locked in multiple basic combos.
Rather than a hugely game changing feature that will massively change how we approach fight encounters.
@x-AmberPrice yeah... it's starting to seem that way. With what EVADE THIS5965 said in another post and what looks to be a general lack of interest of talking about it in the community... I guess it's not supposed to be a major mechanic.
I honestly was super excited when they said a parry was being added. However, now I'm guessing I shouldn't really care as much as I should. And that's kind of irritating to me. But whatever...
I'll stop bringing it then. No use in talking about it anymore.
@PricillaAtticus I hope I didn't give the impression I was being dismissive about it. I was responding to a lot of posts of people who didn't even seem to know about the recent changes, and I don't know... it gets boring explaining the same thing over and over again. But you do know so I can address your points directly.
First of all, your suggestion is better than anything I've seen so far. To be clear, I do NOT think we should prevent a parried target from regenerating stamina normally, which is the suggestion I see a lot. However, preventing them from using their stamina for at least 1-2s is a great idea. It's a bit problematic if they can respond before they've even finished staggering. This hasn't bothered me much since I'm usually trying to count down how many evades the enemy has to work with, and I consider it a win if the parry gets me half a bar and causes them to lose another bar. Often by the point I'm parrying they don't have any stamina to work with anyway, so it becomes a moot point. But yeah not even having a second to react after a good parry is awful.
Anyway, to be more clear on my stance on this and why I think Parry is AMAZING...
It's true, the best time to use Parry is when you're not at full stamina, but that's just a way of maximizing its benefit. At the same time, it'd be pretty weird if you were always at full stamina anyway, and in reality this is only a small aspect of the skill cap involved with it. The best thing I can tell players who don't know what to do with it is to just want until its their only option and try it. This allows them more opportunities to work parry into their gameplay and practice it, and only then will they have the confidence to use it more freely without feeling they're being punished for trying it.
It was really slow going at first, but I've started to have a lot of success with the mechanic in general. Since it gives stamina, the best time to use it is when you're at around half of your total stamina, because like I've said elsewhere Evade IS better than Parry, but Parry is free. So if you're out of stamina by the time you're parrying, you're actually doing yourself a disservice. Lets use Zerocool as an example. I can Evade of out melee combo -> Nitro Jump to get away, but a convenient ledge isn't always where I need it to be and I'll be out of stamina by then. A better solution would be to Evade out of melee combo -> Glide towards a good ledge escape position while attacking and waiting to Parry -> Parry -> Nitro Jump out. Now I'm on a ledge AND have almost a full bar of stamina by now. On a map like Aqueducts on point B, this is an opportunity to go all the way up to the top floor, where basically no one else in the game can follow him. Now Daemon, who can normally just wall jump to follow, can no longer do so.
And if I miss my Parry attempts, well that's kind of my fault isn't it? I should get better at Parry. At least I still have 1 bar of stamina to try and rectify the situation and try again.
So no, simply waiting to use it as a last resort is not at all optimal, but it's certainly a lot easier to tell people that when they find Parry hard to land to begin with. Sorry but parrying was a lot harder in Dark Souls, so I feel more up to the challenge and so far its been going well for me. I think it's amazing and highly rewarding, and any more buffs to it are just going to make me harder to deal with. But a 1s window of no followup after a parry does not sound that bad to me. It seems pretty fair actually, as it gives ranged fighters a chance to do SOME damage and make trades up close, as opposed to having Gizmo get slaughtered by Daemon and Daemon only losing 100 hp max from Sucka and T-ruts.
There's also the free evade when you're down, which is nice. If you have to take one combo it's not too bad if it means being able to get away, but good players will combo cancel and never let you go until you Parry or get your stamina back. I also have some strategies to how I handle Parry for melee vs melee, but I think I've made my point? Parry is amazing and I'm excited to see where players take it.
@Evade-This5965 Oooooh, yeah it did a bit but reading the post clears the miscommunication up lol
Looking back now, I think I was getting hung up on enemies easily bypassing by dodging out. But when when they are out of stamina... it's definitely amazing.
That's honestly been my whole issue. Aside from that, I think the parry window and stun duration is fine. I'm use to dealing with precise timing in fighting & action games. I can parry every character in Bleeding Edge thus far (still need to practice to be able to get the initial hit parried).
I'm hopeful to see what happens once the game releases and sure others will start using it. That's why I'm hoping we can invite friends to our dojo down the road.
In terms of escaping, my only things issue is that it doesn't always plan out too great. Though that comes with the situation, my shortcomings and mods in general.
Though even in the first closed beta, I managed to beat an El Bastardo 1v1 with Maeve by parrying. Which... I don't know if that should happen but it did lmao
But yeah, thanks for the post! We're good
Edit: And as time goes on, I'm sure people will start changing up the timing of their attacks and using abilities to mix things up (which people already are, but more so).
"When you parry, the enemy dies."
But seriously, I think the only reason they are wanting to add a half bar stamina is that players are panicking when they are in a fight. If they're losing, they will evade or dodge. We just need to be better at not wasting our stamina. Well, I do at least
The entire "Parrying" system should be reworked completely. Not only is is SO unreliable and SO inconsistent due to everyone's attacks being at different speeds and being such an insanely short amount of window, I would never rely on it nor do I see any point to...just my thoughts
P.S. If parrying didn't feel like guessing what comes out of the Schrödinger's box, it would be a valuable asset in terms of "outplaying" the opponent, but currently it lacks any definite use.