Suggestions for characters and maps! My two cents...

  • Yep, it's another one of those, but it's MY opinion so it's obviously better right? (sarcasm) It's pretty long so you've been warned.

    Her Oil Slick does damage apparently, but I never noticed because it is SUPER picky about fighters being on the ground in order to be hit. This makes the Yank -> Oil Slick combo actually pretty suboptimal. I had to start doing Yank -> 1 attack -> Oil Slick to maybe land its damage. I see no reason for this, just increase its vertical hitbox a little bit. Also I didn't get a chance to test this, but does oil slick damage objects? If not it totally should.

    It'd be helpful if there was a way to go directly into her Launch rather than swing at nothing -> Launch and waste that time. Using it with a combo is definitely nice, but this transition could definitely be faster. Also her Launch is super wobbly. All my videos of it show me constantly overcorrecting during its charge and release. Making it track a lock-on target, giving it a higher threshold where it doesn't move, and/or making the movement itself just go in a straight line would all be definite improvements to its usability. ALSO, while I don't expect it to be as good as Barge, it's a little strange that if I ram an enemy into a wall I'M the one who is punished. Launch usually ends in a basic attack, but if you hit a wall it doesn't as you're bounced back a little and the target just walks away.

    Turbo Charged is pretty darn good, but given its emphasis on improving your damage, it'd be nice if perhaps it also increased your melee reach slightly or perhaps increase your stamina regeneration a little so it's easier to chase down enemies? It's a super, it should be pretty strong, but it's a little hard to take advantage of its usefulness right now. The instant heal it provides is super nice though and is the primary reason I get it sometimes.

    This might just be my opinion, and I could just get use to the way her controls are setup but I'd like to point out that Hightail doesn't feel intuitive. I'd rather her direction of movement be in the direction of your joystick while you attack behind you. This is because in practice it's primarily a movement special, not an attacking one. The damage is pretty low and can even be hard to land due to its weird physics (it's a cone of 5 bouncing projectiles going down in a V-shape after bouncing off the ground). But it does function as a dash and a really easy way to get to high ground quickly. So I'd prefer if I didn't have to flip directions constantly to use it properly. Alternatively, you could make its damage component actually seem worthwhile? Or at least more reliable. As it is right now, if I'm trying to deal damage, I'm never going to distance myself from the enemy to try and maybe land its meager damage.

    Her Dive Bomb needs to be able to be cancelled with both the X and the LB. It's really annoying that the button that activates the super doesn't work for its second activation. It's not intuitive and pretty annoying to remember I need to hit X and not LB.

    You can use Shift (but not Shift Strike) while stealthed, which makes sense because it's not really an attack. I'd argue that Death Mark should get the same treatment. It doesn't do damage, so why does it break stealth? Death Mark should also be a much faster cast instead of awkwardly interrupting your movement, especially if you expect players to seamlessly cast it multiple times in a fight. Despite it seeming like a good super, I would often take Shadow Strike instead because it's instant, provides invulnerability, and did a LOT of damage without making me jump through hoops like Death Make does. Making its usage smoother would help it out a lot.

    I appreciate Arekkz gaming for their videos, but they outright suggested that we're suppose to go Death Mark -> Stealth -> Shift Strike, which is like... why?? That's such terrible advice and a complete waste of stealth. All it gives is a brief window of invisibility as you're dashing in, but they already saw you and it's pretty darn obvious who you're targeting, so why would we put stealth on an over 20s CD for nothing? I'd rather show up or leave the fight in stealth, like how you'd normally play him before Death Mark pops up. This change would increase his dynamism without buffing his damage and I think that makes a huge difference on a ninja-like character.

    El Bastardo
    I like that all of his specials add to Life Support now instead of just Empower, but as a result Empower feels pretty lacking now. It's an instant cast with some base shielding, so it's not bad by any means, but a small change would make it way better... make it work on objects. Now I might be wrong, but I'm 90% sure that if I use it near Power Cell canisters it won't damage them. This is a small change that would help a lot.

    Bouncer, please, I hate it. It hurts your teammates more than helps them at the moment. It should give you the option to bounce, not force it on you. In fact, why not make it function almost exactly like a Jump-Pad? It makes perfect sense that Gizmo could make one of those, and those don't throw my sky high and make me miss my combo. You could still have it work immediately on Gizmo when she casts it the first time as well, since I don't want to take away her panic button.

    I'm happy to have the Lucky Charm passive, even though it is... super, super weak. It's like 18 hp every 2s. Its range doesn't feel great at all either, as I'm constantly hugging teammates to try and ever so slowly tick up their health. I'm not saying it needs to heal more, but it'd certainly be nice to give it some synergy with his other specials. I don't know the best way to implement this, but here's some examples to illustrate this idea.

    1. Shield/Boon targets also gets Lucky Charm, producing the aoe around them for its duration.
    2. Allies standing on Sacred Ground get twice the benefit from Lucky Charm, incentivizing you to hang around your ward. Then just ever so slightly lower the ward's healing to compensate.
    3. A Cursed/Mind Controlled target within its range takes damage when it procs.

    Toil and Trouble is a pretty great super. Lots of damage, but also lots of ability to respond and avoid it, however it chases for way way too long. Cast has so much mobility I was able to keep ahead of it as it chased me to the other side of the map before it finally disappeared because there were no easy walls to hide behind during that time. I'd even be okay with it exploding at the end, just make it happen sooner please. Also, allow the caster to prematurely detonate Toil and Trouble as its moving if they wish to. It needs a little more Versatility and skill associated with it. I say that because Peek-a-Brew is EXTREMELY strong in the right hands with a high skill cap, and this would let it play to high skill players better.

    He needs some love... you said you'd compensate him for the lack of Evade/Parry but I don't think we've seen it yet? He's really good at supporting his teammates, but so many things about him that could increase his skill cap and usefulness just fall short. So let me talk about some of his problems.

    Pepeke stance is just... so bad. The speed boost is so negligible that even while running away a melee character's attack combo with FOLLOW you for its full duration. You don't flinch, but most characters can just X,X,X,X,Evade In,X,X,X,X,etc... all while you're running. Leg-It doesn't even remotely seem to change this, for that ultra-brief duration it has un-modded. It also doesn't increase the speed of Barge and Katamaori based on my testing. The only time it's truly useful is when you're holding down your slap and need to follow and track your target with it.

    There's also the Cleanse on Leg-It I suppose... but its got to be the hardest to use Cleanse in any game I've ever seen. On the off-chance you happen to be standing on top of an ally when they get stunned/silenced/etc. (because its range is awful), you're probably also stunned anyway. And since you can't Cleanse yourself, it goes to waste. And why not be able to Cleanse yourself? That's like... the whole point of the ability. I don't mind punishing players for being in Ora stance when they get stunned, losing the chance to Cleanse it, but as it stands I'd have to be pretty stupid to ever leave Ora stance and lose that sweet health regeneration for even a second.

    Then there's Barge, which is a really great ability but just needs some touching up. It should be a little easier to control, move faster (seriously it doesn't feel like a charge at all), and at the end if you don't hit a wall should bounce anyone you're carrying back just a little bit away from you instead of them just full stopping right next to you. Also please let me cancel the Barge with RB not just X. Second activation abilities should work with the button that activated them!

    You have a mod that increase the first bounce of Chain Heal but NOT the second bounce. Why? Bounce mechanics in this game are truly wonderful and I took full use of that on Nidhoggr, but this mod actually presents a huge disadvantage if you get it on Miko. It greatly increases the odds that you would move to heal an ally, thinking you'd get some healing as well to keep you up, only for it to not bounce back to you. Ranges are really hard to estimate after all, so I'd rather have to walk closer to my ally to get in range than for it to work but not bounce back. The second bounce already does less healing, why are you worried about it having an improved range if you mod it? It'd be so much better to just nerf the range on the mod to like 20% then make it work on the second bounce too.

    Now I haven't tried that mod yet, so there's a chance I may be misunderstanding its effects, but it was pretty clear in its description.

    The slow on his Boomitar is so brief most players I watched didn't even know it did that. It's so short it only barely makes up for the brief pause in movement he does to cast the special, so if you miss the stun it doesn't help at all (I mean the damage is ok too I guess). The you have a mod to increase the slow duration by 2.5s! It's a good mod for sure, maybe too good. I think you should split the diff a little, give an extra half a second from the mod directly to the base special's slow duration.

    Also, I can't remember for sure and I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure objects like power-up crates block the movement of his Powerslide and the Boomitar, while it does do damage, disappears into the object instead of passing through it. These specials should penetrate objects.

    If you're standing still and use Firewall, it handles the collision by putting you in front of the wall. It really should do the opposite. I do like that if you do a standing Nitro Jump you'll land on top of the wall, but can't you have that AND make make it so that a still cast resolves the collision to you being behind the wall instead?

    Healing stream is a little weird with its functionality. I mostly like it, but I can't help but feel like I'd enjoy it a lot more if it did continuous healing instead of a gradient of healing, then when you run out of your "juice" it drops to practically nothing like it does normally or shuts off entirely to start its recharge. I'd prefer the latter. I'm sure I'll get use to the feel of it with practice, but I'd rather have a more clear idea of how much I'm healing when I use it while decreasing its absurd burst then falloff of healing a little.

    Nitro costing stamina is great, but instead of using up 1 bar automatically, I think it'd be way better to let you use it however long you want to achieve the height you want. Sometimes I only need a little extra height, sometimes I need a lot. This would improve its versatility and skill cap as a result, but it wouldn't be hard to use either.

    Now about the maps...

    Jersey Sink
    If I had one major complaint, its that there's only one way to leave your base, which can make spawn camping more of an issue. A second path out would be nice, perhaps one that takes you up high and you have to drop to get out?

    Steam vents are great! Took me a while to realize they were ONLY on that map though which sucks because they kind of lack versatility. They're just tiny islands of invisibility thrown in seemingly random places, which is occasionally helpful for a vague ambush attempt, but usually they see you go in. I really think these could be changed somehow, though I really don't know how. They vaguely resemble bushes from League of Legends but are only 2% as useful. Like could it grant a 2-3s stealth just by passing through it? Could they be bigger or longer or just better placed, perhaps cascading open and close instead of just sitting their statically? Could they be destructible objects as well, or just allow you to target them in general so you can better aim at those hiding there?

    The elements in this map are a lot more static in general compared to other maps, with the one major exception being the moving objectives A and C. This allows the static electric fences to come into play a lot in an interesting way, but the steam vents not as much. I really don't know what would be best here, but something better would be nice.

    Maps in BE change and have elements scattered everywhere, making every inch feel important and useful. Boneyard may be the only map that really lacks that feeling. It's much flatter with more open spaces compared to other maps, and there's absolutely nothing along the edges, not even a drop off which would function as an interesting environmental hazard to work around. There's also these oddly placed clusters of buildings around point A where the power-up crates are that aren't connected to anything... There just doesn't seem to be enough jump-pads on all these weirdly shaped structures around the map to really play around the high ground. In a way though, it's fine as a more open and flat map, that's just what makes it different from other maps, but it needs something more.

    This could be a good opportunity to add Launch Pads as well, perhaps across the gap of the high ground over point A, across the planes in the high ground of point B, or even all the way from one cluster south of point A to the cluster north of it. Give me more reasons to be there. However I do feel like Launch Pads are the unique element of Skygarden, and I don't necessarily want to take away from that.

    Alternatively you could make a different unique element entirely just for Boneyard like a sand put that slows fighters that walk into it, or some of those bombs scattered around the map after an airstrike that haven't been blown up yet and if you hit them they explode after a few seconds. Anything to give the perimeter of the map a little more life to it.

    It's super cool that this is the only map you can't run back to base in. However as a result you're a little to easy to spawn camp. There's 3 exits so to speak, but they all land too close to each other. Launch Pads are great though I love them. I actually think the map should have MORE of them in the play area. There's the 4 in the corners but perhaps one going across the center would be nice? There's this area above the gong in point C where fuel cells sometimes appear that'd be a good spot for that.

    More importantly though, the gongs need to be tweaked. Player-driven hazards? What a great idea! Too bad its the weakest hazard in the game. I mean sure it can do thousands of damage, but just like the train at some point you learn not to stand there. The problem right now is the startup time is just way too long, making it supremely easy to walk out from the center before it starts up. If you're not paying attention and don't see me going for the gong, I think you should be punished by at least taking a LITTLE bit of a damage. 1 tick only does 100 damage, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect good use of the gong to do at least that much if they're standing dead center on the objective.

  • Alright, I read through everything lol

    In general, @Evade-This5965 I agree with most (especially the maps). There were a couple of times when spawn camping occurred in Jersey Sink. Wasn't the greatest and in cases when I was in the team doing it, I would often back away. I think Boneyard could benefit from more bomb-like aspects since they already have the bomb hazards. I do think there should be more player-driven hazards just in general (across all maps).

    As far as characters, I think it's safe to say that everyone thinks Makutu needs some more love. Out of all the tanks, I used him the least. I was planning to make him my main because his kit on paper seems cool. It just doesn't seem to work though... especially the lack or parry (which slipped my mind lol).

    Didn't know Maeve's Toil & Trouble could travel that long... jeez lol

    Generally, I used El Bastardo's Empower when I was either low, chasing or in mid-combo... I used one of the MODs but forgot the stats off the top of my head. I was either an extra shield or damage.

    The second bounce would be nice for Miko.

    And lastly, I do think the same button to activate should be used to activate. I said it in another post, but I think dodge might work better as a double-tap vs the current input. Just so it could open up the option to move while parrying or whatnot.

  • @PricillaAtticus, you survived the post! Yay!

    Makutu is playable, kind of, but it did feel like he lost out to Miko who played a similar role of protecting the team. If I played him any other way it was basically a no-go, though he is really good at knocking people into hazards and handling 1v2 fights hah. It's actually pretty strange, because he feels so easy to focus down, but with only 2 people attack mean I was able to kill one before I got taken out... though it was a different story if they just ran, he can't chase at all.

    I think you'll get to main him in the future. I love his character design and background so it'd be a shame to lose him to the realm of unviable characters.

    El Bastardo has 3 mods for Empower, +40 to the bas shield it gives, +50% damage, and +3.5% damage resist per enemy hit for 10s (max 4 stacks). Just in case it was bothering you that you couldn't remember them 🙂

    His empower is pretty good, but I remember thinking it was super strange that MOST of the abilities in the game work on objects, but that one didn't. His Death Spiral makes him pretty good at destroying power cell canisters, but he can only hit 2 at a time and runs out when going for the other 2 in a cluster. Combined with empower, I think a skilled player could take out all 4 pretty easily much faster. It would also make it easier to take out wards and turrets, though he's already pretty good at that.

  • Yeah, I think it was the +40 to the base shield. Because I used leap of faith very often (especially during combos, knocking people out of ability, and etc) and wanted damage with that and the health regen off the death spiral. I am looking forward to the second beta and hoping for some much-needed changes. I want this game to be successful so badly. I've had games come out that I enjoy just fade away (Paragon, Drawn To Death, Lawbreakers, and etc). 😕

  • Nice suggestions! I like most of your ideas for Buttercup and especially Zerocool. That wall felt very clunky to use at times.

  • @Cold-Conduct Thank you! His wall IS a little clunky, perhaps I should also be suggesting to narrow its placement hitbox and make it easier to place on floors above you as well? It's really hard to place on any floor above yours, and while you can jump to make it easier, it makes precise placement that much hard to achieve as a result.

    Also, you know how it looks like a grid while placing it? The grid is like 15 squares wide, but it's the center 3ish columns (not sure the exact height of it) that register collision when you're trying to place it. This makes it really hard to place around columns are walls when you're too close to them, which did mess me up a few times when I moved back through a doorway into a tunnel and failed to place the wall where I meant to. That's what I mean by making the placement hitbox narrower.

  • Hey there!

    Really interesting write up! Thanks so much for the feedback.

  • @Evade-This5965

    Admittedly I didn't play a whole lot of him during the beta (maybe 2 matches) aside from Dojo practicing, but everything you've described seems consistent with what I experienced as well. Most notably placing the wall behind myself depending on the camera angle and my movement. I'll be sure to revisit him next time and see if I still feel the same. Seems like you've nailed it, though.

  • Its been pointed out to be on reddit that Stealth provides a default "sneak attack" bonus (so to speak) to the first attack out of stealth. So Death Mark -> Stealth -> Shift Strike would deal pretty good damage on the first hit.

    Does anyone have the exact numbers for this? I'm trying to watch clips and get an idea for it, and it seems like it's a 2x modifier. Also, Stealth seems to increase movement speed, but I'm not sure by how much and if that only applies to daemon or anyone stealthed. There are also mods that do all of this, so I just thought that's what people had, not thinking it was part of stealth itself.