tier list/strongest and weakest characters
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Nice tierlist overall, but i think you put Gizmo too low, she is the only character capable of dealing over 20k damage, due to being the only one with sustained damage, but it is true that she is excessively vulnerable against melee fighters and it needs to be tweaked
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@Bibertrompete It's in the OP, but for you? Here
twitch.tv/theamazingvector
My Vods from Night 1 are mostly Cass.@SoM3-R4Nd0M-NuB I just think Nidhoggr and Maeve can be thrown off very easily and it's tough to escape with them. Maeve's vanish is nowhere near as good as Daemon being able to vanish and then sleep. IMO there is too much you can do to tech out of Maeve or Nidhoggr's combos.
Guys come on, Nidhoggr and Bastardo lose to parries and Buttercup. I'd put Nid higher but the fact his combo is so slow and his mixup game is piss poor makes me put him where he is. Between him and Zerocool he is def the better choice, but he is simply lacking in important areas, especially against Buttercup where escape is pretty much impossible. Bastardo is a good, solid pick but the fact you can react to the jump template makes it a bit rough to confirm the kill to an aware player.
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Very interesting to see all the differing opinions!
Just for a bit of fun...
Tier S
Maeve - I think not only is she very powerful, she also has a super simple yet incredibly effective basic combo - Cage & Siphon. Cage for me is one of, if not THE best ability in the game and the rate she can shoot them out of the sky is ridiculously frequent. Time your Vanishes correctly and maximise her Schadenfreude and she is borderline unkillable in the right team set up.
Tier A
Miko - She's unbelievably self sustainable. She's like a Tank & Support cross class. In those big team fights, she's incredibly powerful as she's constantly dishing out AoE healing whilst having a second healing ability on a super short cooldown that she can use on herself or bounce around her team. Her other two abilities are extremely powerful as well.
Zerocool - Incredibly difficult to kill if your whole team aren't actively focusing him. He has so many different ways to escape potential threats, even more so with his mods - he easily has the most powerful mods out of any other character. Jetpack, Wall, speedboost, bot healing, defrag. Strongest healing output in the game by a considerable distance too. All he has to do is maximise vertical positioning and he is safe from half the roster.
Daemon - Massive damage output. His infinite invisibility is extremely good (and usually quite frustrating to deal with!). Best pick for hunting supports. Combo cancelling is extremely powerful with him - shift strike out of invisibility -> first 3 of 4 basic attack hits - throw a shuriken before you knock them away on the 4th basic attack hit -> full basic attack combo. Has the potential to insta kill some squishy characters if allowed to pull off.
Nidhoggr - Very tanky for a DPS. A tank killer himself for the amount of damage he can output whilst not as vulnerable as Daemon. Axe ability is really powerful if you get the stun off as the stun lasts a considerable amount of time (longest non-super stun in the game?).
Tier B
Buttercup - She's so tough to kill especially with decent healers backing her up. Hook is a very strong ability. As is the Oil drop. I was surprised how often that oil ruined me during the Beta weekend.
Gizmo - Lack of escape options is the difference between Tier A and B for Gizmo. Positioning is super important for her. She can probably deal the biggest damage output out of every character. Her Mech Super is very strong too.
Kulev - The weakest of the healers IMO, certainly as a solo healer, but still a very viable pick. Bamboozle is just really fun as well
His design is S Tier though, easily!Tier C
Makutu - A bit surprised at the almost unanimous conclusion that he is useless. I think the problem with him is that he's entirely situational. He is so beefy and if he gets the right amount of healing love from his team then he can be a real asset. The best way to describe him is a disrupter. I played a lot of Capture Points with him and found a lot of success in just sitting on the point, bouncing enemies off the point and gaining as many objective ticks as possible.
El Bastardo - This is my "main". So maybe I'm just bad with him
But I don't think he's actually that good. His Leap in theory is a great ability. For example, leaping onto a Zerocool in the background. But after leap, he is immobile. By using leap, you are the engager. The enemy you leap onto, for example the Zerocool, is now in the position to defend, so he would use any number of his escape abilities. Then that's enough to counter El Bastardo from dealing anymore damage until his Leap resets! He's also a bit of both DPS and Tank but doesn't fulfill either role as much as others in that role. E.g. You want more damage output? Pick Nidhoggr. You want more survivability? Pick Buttercup. Just IMO.Cass - My second most played behind Bastardo, so again I might just be bad.
I think Daemon fulfils her role much more efficiently and effectively. I think she's incredibly squishy. Maeve is such a hard counter to her, you almost HAVE to switch if the enemy team has a Maeve. I don't there's a harder counter in the game than Maeve on Cass. She's super fun to play though and another in the S tier for design -
@x-AmberPrice Nice list, super interesting. I agree with a few choices, especially with Kulev as the weakest healer if picked solo. Even more surprised to see Cass lower than Gizmo and Bastardo and Makutu at the same tier.
Just a thought, how much do you value your tanks kill confirm ability to their survivability? I feel a lot of us put Makutu so low because he is that sort of "utility tank." That role is pretty much filled by Miko tho, as you said. That's the largest discrepancy with the tanks being that Makutu, while useful, isn't nearly as good at peeling and killing than the other 2.
Has anyone tried to hook or freeze Maeve during the combo? Shit Miko can even Bubble shield in response and Nidhoggr can Axe toss in response. Has noone clapped back against her?
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@AmazingVector nice list, man. I feel you why gizmo being down there, i main giz and i do really really good with her every game with 12k+ damage always at first but gizmos on other teams just cant find out how to use her or just simply get discouraged due to her low health, bad escape and weak abilities. (But the mec its my favorite ult) Ultimately buffs to her abilities should be a mian concern. O and I'd put daemon at S- lol
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@AmazingVector Maeve is the best escape character, having the cage and vanish, whilst also kiting back and healing at the same time, so unless you mean she blows her cool downs and is running from 2+ characters, I'd agree, also she has pick potential, which makes her an A-tier character imo. For Nidgoggr, I have no doubt in my mind that he is the best character if you are good (at least in the current game state). Not only do you have an extra dodge via Powerslide, u have a ranged stun, which could be dodged, but that leaves you susceptible to his combos, yes even without his stun. Having Buttercup as my main (6 K/D while actively tanking) Nidhoggr still melts me. I don't see a situation where Nidhoggr does not excel in tbh. Regarding Daemon, he is still a B-tier character due to his lack of HP and susceptibility to insta death from dive teams. You could say he could vanish, but ANY ability that touches him makes him visible...not so OP, also you can actually see him in cloak mode and call it out!
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First off I want to thank everyone for your input. I have learned a lot and I feel like I know what to look for in my twitch vods and looking forward into next month. This conversation has brought very well-informed opinions and interesting takes on nearly every character. So sincerely, thank you! I also wanted to encourage anyone who streamed to post your streams and clips in THIS THREAD so we can get some sort of footage bank going!
Now, continuing the discussion.
Maeve and Nidhoggr
These characters are considered by many to be a top-cut, some thinkong above the likes of Daemon and Miko. While I do believe that despite the percieved power level as scaled by the tier list that both of these characters are solid picks who fill their role well, there is a case against both that fundamentally holds them back from excelling where the others do almost effortlessly. I want to make it clear that the following opinions are from matchup experience and gameplay situations that I found prevalent while playing.
Nidhoggr
While Nidhoggr is indeed a strong pick with powerful specials and devastating Supers, I truly believe he is lacking in both combo ability and escapability. These factors, combined with his slow attack speed and his reliance on combos to restore health makes him just suboptimal when it comes to other choices. Bastardo included, as his already large health pool and special moves add to his comboability as a whole while still getting a similar (if not better) benefit. It also comes as a surprise to me personally that his slow and predictable attack rhythm doesn't get brought up, I have learned that during Beta 2 I should Dojo against it because towards the end I felt confident for the parry on hit 2 of his basic combo. It may be uncommon but it is definitely something to think about.Maeve
Being a Ranged character, Maeve is already at a disadvantage to Miko. The Bubble Shield can respond to Cage, forcing Maeve to approach and be within Freeze range or reposition on another target. Buttercup and any character with a stun can interrupt Siphon on reaction, even using combos can break it, which results in forcine Maeve to either Vanish or reposition quickly to optimize basic DPS. As another point, I feel ranged in general is weak against melee because if closed in on you must either parry or know exactly how to escape in a way that can shake not just high speeds, but mixup situations and potential isolation from your team. It is incredibly tough for Maeve if she is the target of sleep as well because of this, being out of the fight at large allows Daemon to effectively neutralize you even during a Siphon, which is another mechanism to throw off her reset gimmick.I also want to make it a point to say I will be revising the first post tier list in some way to more accurately reflect information from this point on. Thank you everyone for the discussion, I can't wait to see you all out there trying new stuff!
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@AmazingVector I will agree that Nidhoggr is slow and has no escape abilities but his combo ability is pretty good if you have a player who really can play him. That's why I consider him to be in the S tier list.
I literally destroyed a really good Miko player just by hitting "X, ,X ,X ,X > Combo Y > Z > V > RT > then X's (4)
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I'm not seeing enough defense for makutu here so as a makutu main here's my thoughts (Devs if you're reading this ignore what I say and just give him a huge buff or remove evade form the game plz). For the lazier people there's a TL;DR at the bottom
Makutu's greatest strength is his ability to not die, an ability people don't seem to use correctly. As you've been saying there are several characters who can end up dishing out large amounts of damage to other characters, this would usually end in their death unless makutu is around, I've found that several times I've charged into a DPS or two to save a teammates life and it usually pays off. pepeke stance gives makutu the highest base movement of any character apart from when Cass's passive kicks in, this speed makes it neccesarry for makutu's target to use stamina or abilities to escape, meaning they'll be at a disadvantage if they re-engage too quick. Makutu's ora stance is also incredibly useful; he is already the tankiest character in the game, but the ora stance enhances this by allowing him to passively self heal, not only making him sustainable in a fight but also allowing him to recover once a fight ends and making hit and run tactics innefective. On top of this, just like buttercup he can't be stunned by basic attacks making him dangerous to get close to.
His abilities aren't useless either: repellent, despite being his worst ability, has a few uses; it does just enough damage and has just enough range to finish of critical targets, it can interrupt combos and put makutu just out of an enemies reach and it buys just enough time to capture a point or deposit some energy cells. His stance abilities also have their uses, ora stance gives makutu an AOE heal that also applies to himself, this can give him and his allies just enough health to make a getaway or continue fighting, pepeke stance allowes him to cleanse all negative movement effects and provide a small move speed boost to all nearby allies, making him a bit more annoying to hunt down. His charge is probably his most useful ability, it disrupts everything and can only be stopped by things like maeves cage or daemons sleep, useful abilities that would be better of saving if the victim survives, if the target connects with a wall they take significant damage and are now stunned, allowing for easy follow-up attacks; while this move is easy to doge if you can see it coming, it activates incredibly quickly and can catch an enemy of guard in close quarters, it can also be canceled at any point during the charge allowing makutu to follow up quickly even if the attacks miss. As for his ultimates, despite the fact they are quite weak compared to other characters, they are still useful: idk much about the ball ult but it can effectively keep a capture/delivery point clear while dealing out damage at the same time; as for the invincibility ult, it can save the whole team if used correctly and allows for some incredibly aggressive and disruptive plays on the enemy.
Overall I'd say makutu is meant to be played as a shield to other characters: a makutu can easily hold off a Daemon or Cass attempting to take out a healer, and if a teammate is capturing a point or depositing energy then makutu almost assures their safety. In comparison to the other tanks I'd say that while buttercup and el bastardo are meant to be played agressively and offensively, makutu is better for agressively defending.As for his matchups, i'd say he kind've shakes the tier list up a bit:
Daemon: in my experience, Daemon isn't much of a threat to makutu. daemons low health pool means that makutu can actually deal a sizeable amount of damage and the matchup usually ends with the Daemon running off after only taking out a quarter of makutu's health. A Daemon could try a hit and run strategy but ora stance would make it take too long to be viable and if the makutu's smart then they currently control the objective.
Cass: Cass matchups end the same way as Daemon matchups usually, if Cass gets caught by makutu's charge then she'll be left on close to half health before being able to evade away. The Cass could try keeping makutu at range but pepeke stance can close enough distance to scare her off before she does significant damage.
Ranged characters: these matchups are similar to Cass apart from the fact that they can take a few more hits before needing to retreat, a ranged fighter that's a bit too close to the tanks is a prime target for makutu's charge and will likely end up being forced out of the fight.
That one melee healer that I can't remember the name of: it is almost necessary to use the freeze on an attacking makutu if this character wants to escape alive, her general lack of escape options makes makutu a huge threat and will end up with her dead if she runs out of stamina.
Buttercup: buttercup has about an even matchup with makutu, as neither of them can be stunned by basic combos it just ends up as a slap fest until someone finally dies, buttercups biggest advantage is that the makutu can't really escape but both players will probably get bored before someone reaches low health
Makutu: same as buttercup just longer
Nidhogger(or however it's spelt): this is probably makutu's worst matchup, he doesn't really have the movement options to escape the fire and if the nidhogger is positioned correctly makutu can't get close without taking a fair bit of fire damage, however if the nidhogger uses all his abilities immediately then makutu can turn the tables with a well spaced charge
Id say makutu is about A tier in terms of the beta. With a decent amount of teamwork he can be taken out fairly early on but otherwise he excels at keeping people away from the point or the rest of the team, the only thing he lacks is (the equivalent of) a parry.
If you've got this far and still would say he's bad then please do because then he may get a buff and I'll be even more powerful
TL;DR
he can't killhe doesn't need to kill, just keep people away from the objective or the team; a thing he does very well. He's A tier. -
Daemon: in my experience, Daemon isn't much of a threat to makutu. daemons low health pool means that makutu can actually deal a sizeable amount of damage and the matchup usually ends with the Daemon running off after only taking out a quarter of makutu's health. A Daemon could try a hit and run strategy but ora stance would make it take too long to be viable and if the makutu's smart then they currently control the objective.
As a Daemon main this is so true
For Miko (the one that freezes people) he is a big threat to her but if played by the right user she can escape him with no problem. She's the only one out of all the characters who's stamina bar depletes very slowly when trying to evade. She can evade 4 times with a full stamina bar.
Very good insight on Makutu though.
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@IXTheCandyManXI Gizmo is who I would start to prioritize first over the healer as Nidhog. You have to be able to survive the time it takes to murder the healer lol.
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@Double00Dusty Nid has a lot of health so it is really hard for a Gizmo to win the matchup, but Nid is not the fighter to deal with a Gizmo
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@BLAZ3-Major comin in with the Makutu knowledge! Hell yes this is just what we needed in this discussion!
You bring up a lot of interesting points about Makutu including his ability to deal with Daemon, which I either never experienced or didn't get to see. As I rewatch my Twitch Vods I do see him picked often in all levels, so I'm inclined to take these points into account as I do more research and edit the list in the coming days. Though I still feel like he is probably the weakest of the three tanks at a baseline, I am definitely reconsidering his position on the list as I am with a few other fighters. Did you stream your games at all @BLAZ3-Major ? I'd love to check out your vods if you do.
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@BLAZ3-Major I am on board with you here. There seems to be a lot of surface-level hate for ol'boy Makutu. I clocked up around 10 hours with Makutu during the beta and tank in all of the competitive pvp games I play, so I feel I can chime in here.
I think when compared to the other tanks Makutu doesn't tank in the same way. He is not a dive in and assassinate type of tank like El'bastardo or a positioning punish like Buttercup. Makutu is a disrupt tank, very similar to Winston or Hammond in overwatch.
I think there are a few key things that need to be understood when it comes to tanking before we discuss the "effectiveness" of a tank. The primary objective of a tank is to "create space", by create space I mean creating an opportunity to deal damage or create physical space for a team to move onto an objective. They can do this by mitigating damage and/or drawing attention from the enemy team.
So the key criteria for a useful tank are typically:
- High sustain - either through high health or shields
- Disrupt - A way to disrupt an enemy player (aka stun or knock-back)
- Escape/Engage - They need a way to start a fight and then leave safely
So with this in methodology in mind and some criteria to measure tank effectiveness against I think these points should be considered when ranking the tanks in the overall tier list
Makutu
High sustain - 5/5
Disrupt - 4/5
Escape/Engage - 2/5Makutu, imo has the highest sustain without a support (only second to El'Bastardo, depending on skill). His ability to disrupt falls onto his shoulder charge and "boop" abilities, on the surface these seem useless or trivial but when used with the goal of creating space these are some of the strongest abilities in the game. He does fall short when it comes to his escape and is reliant on his speed boost and should charge.
Key mods: Cooldown on hit, increased heal burst, increased self-heal, 3 sec slow to players hit by "boop"
Buttercup
High sustain - 2/5
Disrupt - 5/5
Escape/Engage - 4/5Buttercup on her own actually has very poor sustain and all of her threat and space creation comes in the form of constant damage. Her strongest utilities are her "hook/yank" and AOE slow. She speed boost is a great escape and she can charge people when coming off her mount.
Key mods: ??? (need some input here)
p.s: not too much experience with buttercup, would love someone with more experience to add to this.
El'Bastardo
High sustain - 5/5
Disrupt - 3/5
Escape/Engage - 1/5El'bastardo has amazing sustain and in some cases pretty much unkillable when your time is abilities well. He doesn't have too much in the way of disrupting the enemy besides his stun on leap and this goes for escape and engage once you have used your leap your pretty much YOLO commenting into a fight.
Key mods: ??? (need some input here)
p.s: not too much experience with El'b, would love someone with more experience to add to this.
Thats my two sents, I love these conversations would love to hear others opinions or chat more about this.
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I also posted some damage numbers and combos I was testing for Makutu over on this thread: https://www.bleedingedge.com/forums/topic/550/makutu-combos/4
just an fyi.
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The tanks are really well done in this game. You have the fighter tank in bastardo, the initiation tank in buttercup and the support tank in makutu.
Makutu isn’t bad he just doesn’t bring reliable cc like the other two. You have to be close to a wall to get the stun.
Imo the best part about him is the varied combos he can do but unfortunately most people just dodge out of the combos. I think the only thing he needs is a faster attack speed so that he can access the combos and stuns that come later in the chain
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It's too early for a Tier List.
Interesting observations on how people faired with characters though.
The right Team will make any character you select look S++. -
@Azrael008uk While I'm inclined to agree, like I said earlier there was a shift in picks as I kept playing and getting more wins. It's too early for a definitive look, of course, but the point is really to stir some discussion and have a knowledge base at a glance going into Beta 2. There is a lot of great insight here already and for what it's worth, I'd like to keep it going.
On Makutu
I feel like noone here really hated Makutu, I feel that especially after seeing some testimonies I have a better grasp on how I should have approached him. Like I said earlier I feel he falls into the "utility tank" archetype where the other 2 are clearly offensive powerhouses. There is something to be said about taking advantage of his stances, because from what I'm reading he seems more like a playmaker than anything else. Though, at the same time, the impression I'm getting are unanimous in that his kit is very dynamic and situational. I definitely feel after reading some impressions that there was a lot of unexplored potential so that is awesome.
Then again when I look back I don't think it gives him a leg up against the other tanks. It DOES make me reconsider the DPS hierarchy a bit, but I'd need to see some footage before I really care to move him specifically up in the ranks.
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@AmazingVector said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
Has anyone tried to hook or freeze Maeve during the combo? Shit Miko can even Bubble shield in response and Nidhoggr can Axe toss in response. Has noone clapped back against her?Of course, but then her third ability counters all of that, again with little to no complexity. She can just go poof and she's invisible AND invulnerable for the next few seconds. She has time to get out of the firing range, get some/find some healing, then her Cage is already off cooldown...rinse and repeat. Then she has the potential to use her abilities even more frequently with her Schadenfreude ability reset!
@BLAZ3-Major said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
Makutu's greatest strength is his ability to not dieThat is the problem with him though, he's too easy to kill right now. He's not completely garbage like some people say and there are certain situations where he is incredibly effective. He is a disrupter as I mentioned in a post above and in terms of recapturing the objective and sustaining your team a little he can be a real asset. But - he can't parry, he doesn't get flung back out of melee proximity, and his melee attacks are easy to parry as they are so slow. He is just too situational right now especially compared to the rest of the roster. Miko ironically has greater sustainability than him IMO.
@Azrael008uk said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
The right Team will make any character you select look S++.Yeah, this is the trump card to nearly every thread on this forum tbh
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@x-AmberPrice I feel like if you can constantly chase her out then she just sort of ends up as a psuedo assassin type that can't truly confirm if she is isloated. You can dodge the cage on prediction and if you close the distance you get in before Siphon can kill or get a lot of healing back. Then she is a melee attack away from either running again or straight up dying. I know this is why she sucks against Cass, because you can her the pops when she blinks in and out (they are loud IMO) and she can't get that damage in before Cass gets in again to net the kill and re-engage. I feel like her biggest problem is the counterplay making her more prone to being dived on, forcing the vanish, then having a Daemon, Cass or even Miko or Nidhoggr being aware of her poof-in and just trying to get in. She sort of needs the team built around her from my experience. She just never got so out of hand she wiped the team that I saw.
I also use the easily parried factor against Nidhoggr too. I do agree that when Makutu's combo gets to the animation where he comes down with the double-chop is super easy to parry. You get a lot of time to see it coming and 2 real chances to parry. I will say though the charge is something I guess I didn't see in totality where if the opponent hits the wall they get stunned. I don't think it happened to me, then again as a non-tank I try to avoid engaging them lol.
