Multiple healer meta needs to be addressed asap

  • I like this game and it’s been getting better, but this is a major balance issue and the most obvious one that must be fixed immediately. I’m sure they wanted to focus on the game’s performance after launch which it desperately needed. There is still room for improvement there but the game is now very playable

    Since a lot of those things have been fixed/improved it is time to solve this problem of multiple healers being way too strong of a team comp. It is very common to see teams with 2 healers and it makes their survivability skyrocket

    Another very telling sign of how op this comp is: when teams are losing and dying a lot, they switch to multiple healers and immediately start doing better and even may start winning.

    I had an extreme case yesterday. We were winning against a team, beating them by a lot. Easy kills for most of the game. Then they switch to a THREE HEALER comp and I’m almost positive we did not get another kill for the rest of the match even though we did win because our lead was large

    There was still a decent amount of time left too when they made the switch so we had several fights after that, but simply couldn’t get kills due to the op nature of this comp. This example shows that picking more than one healer simply makes up for a lack of skill at the game and instantly gives your team a large boost to winning/staying alive.

    I have 2 solutions to this. One i already proposed before which is diminishing returns. So the more healers you pick, the smaller the % of healing that each one does which decreases their combined healing. For example, picking 2 healers makes it so that each one only does 50-70% of their normal healing etc

    I think that is the best solution, but if NT wants to implement a really easy short term/possibly long term solution, simply keep every team locked at one healer max. This does take away player choice and prevents multiple healer comps, which is why i prefer option 1, but option 2 certainly would solve the problem as well

    This is the mostly glaring balance issue in the game by far and it must be addressed right now.

  • Have you tried the antiheal mods? I'm pretty sure this would've been noted in closed alphas so I doubt they're as op as you think

  • I do not agree that 2 healers are any better.
    In my opinion team 3dps 1supp counters that pretty good. The key is communication.
    3 good dps are capable of nuking first healer very quick. The best example is deamon. He can put first healer to sleep/silence for 9sec. This is more than enough to nuke 2nd one. The problem is not the composition, but rather lack of coordination and chaotic playstyle. And ofcourse there is a learning curve. At the beggining it is much easier to fly around and spam heal (ZeroCool) than to catch and supress him as a dps. But the more you understand cooldown relations and traversing system, the healers have much more harder nut to crack. They have to balance between staying alive and heal.
    Ofcourse without ranked system inmplemented we can not make the metaanalisis. So... we just have to wait.

  • @Bipster0115 said in Multiple healer meta needs to be addressed asap:

    Have you tried the antiheal mods? I'm pretty sure this would've been noted in closed alphas so I doubt they're as op as you think

    There are no antiheal mods from what ive seen. If there are go ahead and name them i would love to know

    And since there are none, yes it is exactly as op as i think it is

  • @RustyBlasty There is a GAPING hole in your argument. You say communication is key, and yet most teams are not playing in a party and do not communicate because people do not join voice chat including myself

    Which means that your point is rendered pointless due to the fact that only organized pre made parties will be able to do what you said. Playing with a team of randoms and nobody on comms, we are not all going to go after the same target constantly it just never happens even if you mark the target and say kill kulev. They don’t care and they won’t listen

    So yes it is a major problem and it is op in the circumstances under which i play, circumstances which apply to many if not most of the playerbase in this game. Which means it needs to be addressed immediately

  • @ShadoWawker @ShadoWawker "under the conditions i play" but you aren't playing under the conditions intended by the developers. You say people don't join the chat, but when you start up the game, the very first thing that shows up on the screen is a note that explicitly states that joining the team chat is the default setting, so the only reason anyone wouldn't be in it would be if they went out of their way not to be in it. If the other team works better as a unit than yours, it isn't the game that's at fault. You may not personally be at fault either, but the nature of any team-based game is that it isn't about you, it's about a whole team. I mostly play with randoms also, and just like everyone else, sometimes i get a good team, sometimes i get an awful team, but that's just how it goes. However, if you don't bother trying to communicate or work cohesively because you assume that it won't make a difference, that part actually is on you.
    As far as parties with multiple healers being "op," there is a very simple solution: change the comp of your team to match or counter the enemy. Team comp is a major part of the game, and it is designed to be adaptable, otherwise character selection would be locked in at the beginning of the match. If one team does something to dramatically tip the scales of the match in their favor, it isn't that they're exploiting a flaw in the game's design, it's an important aspect of being part of a team, called strategy. It isn't "overpowered" if your team has the ability to do the exact same thing, or something similar that may even put the advantage back on your team. Seeing a change in your opponents' strategy that puts them at an advantage and making no effort to adapt because you think it's unfair isn't an unbalance in the mechanics of the game, it's simply poor strategy.
    Also, not that it matters, but a three-healer composition is not generally ideal(much less "overpowered") because while they may not die easily, their damage output is sure to suffer, and their crowd control capabilities most likely will too. If they found a way to make that work for them and executed it effectively, good for them; it sounds like they're good at the game.
    Tl;dr: if you don't like how effective someone's team composition is, don't try to change THEIR strategy; just update yours. That's what strategy is.

  • @Thug-sleazy Ok several problems with what you’ve said that make it wrong. First of all as I mentioned i play solo. I do not have the power to change the comp of my team and get them to play double healer. I will pick what i pick and they will pick what they pick

    Your counter to this could be “well then join voice chat and tell them to switch to another healer”. And my counter to that would be even if i did join,

    1. Other people would have to be in voice chat as well which often won’t be the case.
    2. The people who are in vc would have to actually listen and be willing to change to support because i told them to, also very unlikely. People play what they want to play

    The other thing you could say is “well then why don’t you just switch to another healer?”

    Ok that would be valid but only if we already have one. Because let’s say I’m already the only healer, then what? Then nothing, because my power has already been exerted and that’s it.

    Most importantly, your claim that multiple healer comp is not op because the strategy is available to both sides is 100% wrong and ludicrous. Let me give you an extreme example for you to realize how insane that argument is. Let’s say hypothetically that if a team picks a 4 dps comp, everyone on their team kills in one hit, melee or ranged. So it’s basically a guaranteed win every time with 0 deaths assuming the other team does not match

    Since this strategy is available to both sides according to your logic, this comp still wouldn’t be op even though it CLEARLY IS. The exact same principle applies to the current situation on a lower point in the spectrum. If that gets an op rating of 100/100 (zero being not op) multiple healers would be something lower out of 100. But it is still op, and it needs to be addressed now. Your argument does not hold up

  • @ShadoWawker again, most people are in voice chat, because that is the default setting of the game. Poor cooperation can't be fixed by restricting composition possibilities.
    I don't really understand the point you're trying to get at with your "extreme example." That's literally the total opposite of what we're discussing, the only similarity being a non-traditional team comp. If you think 4 dps is an overpowered comp, You're entitled to that opinion. Maybe try using that against the multiple healer teams you say are op, or did you want to ban the 4 dps comp too? The beautiful thing about team composition is there will always be a way to beat it. Variety is the spice of the battle. If you experiment with different character combinations, you'll start to learn more about what characters go together, which ones are good for countering what the enemy team is playing, etc. and as you learn more about how various comps work, you'll be better equipped to counter the teams you play against, and how to improvise effective combinations with strangers, improving your success rate overall.

    "if you don't like how effective someone's team composition is, don't try to change THEIR strategy; just update yours. That's what strategy is."

  • @ShadoWawker you seem to be so fixed on that concept it doesn't even surprises me that you find every opposing argument wrong and invalid. Just try to take a step back and chill. Nobody is trying to tell that you should use voice chat to switch to 2 healers. You just assumed that becouse are already are sure thats the best option. Well, no.

  • I agree with Shadowawker. Just looking at stats after games, healers often heal as much or more than the top dps numbers, while also dealing damage themselfes. On top of that healers offer a lot of utility, which is often deciding for securing kills or the lives of teammates.
    All of that makes healers really strong, but they also fill a crucial role that has a high impact on matches by nature, while often being the prime target for the enemy team.
    Having multiple healers on one team allows them to keep each other alive, when being focussed. Healers obviously do the best job of keeping others alive, so that improves the survivability of the whole team even more and there will be way less downtime on healing, as healers will survive longer. In a game where the main objective is usually to secure a point and defend it, the ability to just stay alive and stay on that point is very impactful and so is the ability to keep teammates with a lot of powercells alive.
    However restricting teamcomps is a bad idea, so i would agree to reduce the effectiveness of the heals by 20-30% in case a team picks more than one healer.

  • @Thug-sleazy Dude are you kidding me? Most people are not in voice chat that is plain wrong. You can see by the little icon next to their names on the scoreboard. Which means a ton of people are actively going into settings like myself and turning it off

    Number two, even the people who seem to have voice chat on, they aren’t talking and probably have everyone muted anyways so they aren’t actually in chat either it just looks like they are. I even did an experiment by joining voice chat for several games and literally NO ONE was talking at all.

    These are people who probably just forgot or can’t be bothered to turn it off in the settings. People do not use voice chat in this game

    Also, i find it extremely hard to believe that you didn’t understand the point i was trying to make with my example of 4 dps because i explained it very clearly. But ok fine i’ll even do it again for you just so you realize how bad your argument is

    You said that multiple healers is not op because it is a strategy both teams can use. Therefore even if it is incredibly strong (op) that doesn’t matter because my team can do it too. I invalidate that argument with my hypothetical of something that obviously is op even though both teams can use it. Which means this can be applied to multiple healers as well. Just because both teams can do something doesn’t automatically mean it’s not op, it just means that they can both use something op. The op thing still has to be addressed it can’t be left alone just because both teams can abuse it that’s a ridiculous approach

    In addition, you failed to address any of the other points i made regarding my influence on getting people to pick multiple healers in the first place. All you say is “most people are in voice chat” which isn’t true at all. So if i am unable to talk to and convince people to switch to match multiple healer anyways, that FURTHER invalidates your argument because in most cases we cannot match the other team’s comp

  • @RustyBlasty said in Multiple healer meta needs to be addressed asap:

    @ShadoWawker you seem to be so fixed on that concept it doesn't even surprises me that you find every opposing argument wrong and invalid. Just try to take a step back and chill. Nobody is trying to tell that you should use voice chat to switch to 2 healers. You just assumed that becouse are already are sure thats the best option. Well, no.

    Actually someone is telling me that if you read the other comments in this thread. That is exactly what he’s telling me to do how else am i supposed to accomplish this on a team where i play solo? I’m supposed to hope i get lucky? Magic? What other way is there to quickly tell people to switch to multiple healer? None

    And because people don’t join vc even if i want to use this approach it wouldn’t matter and wouldn’t work. No one is even there to talk to and nobody has their mics on

  • @airwalk5555 Yes thank you all good points finally someone who gets it. This is so painfully obvious to anyone who plays solo, and even full parties if they are not constantly focusing one healer will get destroyed by multiple healer comps

    Diminishing returns was the first solution i suggested in a separate thread and i think it’s the best way to go. However it would require more balancing and tuning which is why they may want to pick an easier solution while the testing on that is done

    Or they could just put it in and let the players test it. That should be ok because worst case is that the multiple healers end up being too underpowered which would actually be a good thing to discourage this meta.

  • @ShadoWawker as I've already said, i play solo as well; you don't seem to understand that i deal with the same team issues you do. I make it work. I recall you making a point that i could argue for you to switch to healer, and your rebuttal was "what if i already am a healer?" Well my first question is: are you? Or was that a hypothetical to counter a point before i made it? If you're not, that would definitely be one way to go about it.
    I would like to reiterate the point: opting out of voice chat is playing the game differently than the devs intended. If people aren't using the tools and mechanics they put in place, it isn't their fault or responsibility to "fix." That said, there are other ways to get your point across as well, if voice chat isn't working. For example, if you are already playing healer, try switching off. Someone else is almost guaranteed to switch to accommodate the change, and then you simply go back. Plus, if they don't, that means you get to use your 4 dps comp you think would be so great.
    At this point in the game, most of the community is learning the basics of successful team building. Some groups say one healer is the way to go, and others nearly insist their team runs two. Both builds have positive and negative aspects, both are viable, and either can beat the other. You are right that comps with two healers do often come out on top, but it can always go the other way, especially if a team is well coordinated. For example, if the healers are healing each other, catch them off guard by nuking a squishy dps character on their team first. One character can kill another in seconds if you know what you're doing, and the healers will be easier to kill if they're down a person. Again, this game calls for players to employ strategy if they want to win.
    Honestly it makes a lot of sense that two healers would be the norm. We're talking about a 4 person team, and most of the time they are trying to deal with more than one objective at a time. We all know that it's best to stay as a full group as much as possible, but when the group does need to split up, isn't the most logical option to split into two groups of two that each have a healer?
    And what about the people that use mods specifically to spec their characters for different roles? If someone has miko or kulev specced specifically to play them as a tank, it wouldn't be fair to say their team can't have another healer or even to limit that healer's abilities, and don't try and argue that running these characters in a different role isn't fair or viable, because if the devs didn't intend for people to do so, they wouldn't have included the mods to spec them that way.

    Tl;dr: if you don't like how effective someone's team composition is, don't try to change their strategy; just update yours. That's what strategy is.