tier list/strongest and weakest characters
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@TwangyGuitar193 said in tier list/strongest and weakest characters:
On the topic of Cass, how do you see her ranged attack effecting her role in a fight?
A few people here in the office have her as a main, and what I notice when they play her is how she never leaves a fight. Daemon, in my opinion, is a more effective assassin for similar reasons you’ve mentioned here. By contrast though once daemon is done with his target players mostly find an escape, whereas Cass I never see leave the frontline!
Uh... I'll try to understand what you're asking, but I'm not totally sure.
I wouldn't say Cass is a frontliner though. She skirts the fight and picks on targets. Hovering near your teammates is a good idea, but you can't do too much to protect them and you really should be going after the enemy support on the other side. If you're claiming she never leaves the fight, then its because she plays it so safe she never gets hurt.
Her ranged attack is what you'll usually use, because getting close poses a lot of risks to her kit. But against some ranged characters it certainly helps to get into melee and hound them down so they can't fire back at you, or to flinch an enemy hounding your support since that's the only CC you can offer. Her Rake puts you in some interesting situations, but she is through and through a ranged attacker at base.
Daemon also plays the roaming, go after the healer role, but he's not one to harass and kite like Cass, he wants to get in and get the kill or get out. So yeah he definitely doesn't have the same staying power, but he does more damage and generally doesn't need to leave a fight for long. I guess you could say it's because he's melee and not ranged, but his entire kit is designed around him being melee so it works. Cass would be viable in melee too with Stealth, Sleep, Shift, and Shuriken. In the same way, while Cass being ranged does affect her role, her kit is designed to accommodate that and lets her excel at roaming. There's no way she could do that without the absurd mobility of Swoop and Hightail on top of her evade.
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Dodge the Cage, though this isn't strictly required but it'll make a huge difference
I just think it's such a difficult ability to dodge, at least consistently. Of course it's possible to dodge it, but the reaction time it requires is incredibly minimal. You have to evade right on the audio cue otherwise you still wont evade far out enough for it to miss you. In a big team fight with a lot going on that can be extremely difficult. Given the fact it's so deadly and provides so much value every time it lands, I don't think there's enough ways of getting out of it or avoiding it entirely. Like I said, the only non-Super ability that can nullify damage given once caught inside the Cage is Maeve's Vanish.
I think it's more of a lack of alternatives to counter it rather than it being OP.
So calling it (Maeve vs Cass) a counter is accurate, but I also wouldn't say it's hopeless.
It was probably just more from my experience then. Both playing as Cass against Maeve, and vice versa. It's the first time I've played the game where I regularly noticed complete swap-offs because the match-up was landsliding so much in one direction. I think more than anything it's because Cass relies so heavily on mobility, paired with the shortest ttk of any character. Land an ability like Cage which is borderline uncounter-able as discussed above and that's why I think the match-up is as strong as it is and part of the reason why Cass is so low and Maeve is so high in a tier list.
On the other hand, while it's not totally obvious, Miko counters Maeve for sure.
You raise good points again but I think it's more of the Cage & Siphon combo rather than Siphon on its own. You Cage a Miko and, sure, she can put down her barrier but it doesn't nullify melee attacks from other characters. Likewise with Stasis, it might nullify Maeve's Siphon but again, if she's Caged you, she's still susceptible to all other incoming attacks from your team with a giant visual target even if you're not communicating
Even solely in a 1v1, Maeve has the added mobility with Vanish to get away if needed. They both need supporting characters to take each other out in this match up. Again that's where Cage gets massive value.
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On Cass, I would have to agree that her Supers are slightly superior in theory but I think Daemon's aren't bad either. I posted this elsewhere but in my experience, the majority of the time, Supers have been more of a "get myself out of trouble" card. It's why I use Dive Bomb on Cass and Shadow Strike on Daemon personally. Both Supers save me momentarily if I am being hounded. On the other hand, Blade Dance on Cass and Death Mark on Daemon (even Shadow Strike on occasion) can be that extra tick of damage that allows me to finish a kill. Rather than some giant game-changing team wipe, I think there's a lot of value in deciding what Supers you use based off play style, and even as a counter to a method you've died to multiple times. That's why I ultimately switched from Blade Dance to Dive Bomb with Cass because I felt like I needed that extra mobility option to get out of fights alive more consistently!
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Not much to say on the last bit, I like the characterisations you've given and agree mostly! I'm looking forward to playing El Bastardo again in the next Beta for sure.
On the topic of Cass, how do you see her ranged attack effecting her role in a fight?
A few people here in the office have her as a main, and what I notice when they play her is how she never leaves a fight. Daemon, in my opinion, is a more effective assassin for similar reasons you’ve mentioned here. By contrast though once daemon is done with his target players mostly find an escape, whereas Cass I never see leave the frontline!For me personally, I like to sit on the outskirts of the battle and support fire with my Ranged. It's not massive damage but it chips away nicely. If the enemy team is preoccupied or doesn't focus you, you can get some nice damage off. When I spot someone with less than half HP remaining, that's where I'll Swoop in and Rake from close range. If they use some sort of traversal ability to get away, I'll use the second Swoop to stay close, keep up the pressure and continue to land as many Rakes as possible. Once I'm low, I'll use Hightail to get away, or even the Dive Bomb Super (that I have paired with the heal 60 per second while in the air which is very effective imo). I'll then make the most of her speed to disengage entirely where they would have to board up to chase me. It's important to know the health locations on each map so you can circle around them as efficiently as possible too.
So I think when you say you never see her leave the frontline in your experience, it's because she can keep disengaging from the fight due to her high mobility, and then heal herself up from the pickups. She's constantly in and out if not dealt with
I think a lot of it comes down to her not really being a priority in a lot of fights, especially if she's just doing chip damage with her Ranged attack on the outskirts. But when she dives in she can be a really menace.
Maeve is a super strong pick as discussed above. She negates her mobility essentially. As well as that, I think a lot of people don't make the most of the fact that you don't need to have lost any health to set the health packs on their respawn timers, so whenever you're near one it's always a good idea to pluck it so it might be unavailable to a disengaging Cass. How many times have you seen an enemy crawl onto a health pack with 1HP remaining...I know I have plenty of times
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Cass should easily be an s rated character she's way to versatile to be seen as only a A rank, she excels at both long and close range has great abilities to escape, pretty much counters all tanks since she can hammer at tanks from a range and most people that are ranged end up just getting torn apart since she can then turn to close range and stun with her melee attacks, best all rounder imo
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@AmazingVector As a Gizmo main. She has some of the most diverse utility, some of the best escapability and maybe the highest sustained DPS in the game if you use her correctly. Using her jump pad to get to the high ground and placing her turrets on spots difficult to reach is very important and can change the tide in a fight. Using her Sucka grenade is both good for sucking people into a ult combination right into Nid or Daemon ult and for catching them trying to run away. Using it manually is definitely better than locking on as well because you can suck multiple people in at once, or try and read on where a character will go. Don't even get me started on her mech. Her flamethrower melts people fast and her chaingun is just a stronger version of her basic attack.Very good for crowd control and initiating team fights with. In fact, multiple times I have initiated with her mech at the end of games and stalled and survived long enough around point for the team to catch up from respawn and I have singlehandedly won games like that.
Her long range also makes her good at picking off enemies at low health in the most crucial parts of battle, including enemies trying to run away.
As for escape options. She has some of the best in the game when using her Sucka grenade to stall enemies chasing you, putting down turrets to also stall and using the jump pad to get to places that only Zero Cool, Daemon, Cass etc can get to. By the time they catch back up, the Sucka and Turret cooldowns will be back and you rinse and repeat. Putting all of these in conjunction, she can escape nearly every character. If not escape completely, at least back to her team for support.
Her 3 dashes also make her escapability that much better.
I've played Gizmo since beta 1. She is high A-tier at LEAST. I have no idea why you have her as the worst character in the game.
But yeah, just my two cents on Gizmo.
GIZMO SLANDER ISN'T ALLOWED.
Will anybody else defend her? Am I lone wolfing this?
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Though I agree with most of the standings in your rank system, I strongly disagree with your slights against Baron/Kulev. He is an absolute beast with a ton of potential as most of his abilities can be self, friendly, or enemy cast. His damage potential is quite astounding for a support character as well.
Maybe I am too invested in the character. I see you mentioned baseline stats. I'm assuming that means you didn't dabble too much into the rune/power possibilities? Even without, but quite more powerful with one or two new runes. I'm routinely able to 2v1 or 3v1 depending on the build I'm running and the comp of the attackers.
I will say, my true love still lies with Maeve though. She's a powerhouse once you power up her 'Schadenfreude.' With that being said, there are quite a few games where I end up switching to Kulev from Maeve for the clutch wins. From what I've seen, a lot, of the few people who play support players, aren't that great. A lot of horrible positioning and, even worse, diving!
Hope to see you all in game soon!!
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After putting even more hours into Beta 2 I think I'd change 2 things to my previous list. So now it looks like:
S - Maeve
A - Miko, Zerocool, Daemon, Nidhoggr, Buttercup
B - Gizmo, Kulev, Makutu
C - El Bastardo, CassMakutu is the first change I made, moving him from C to B. I think despite some lack of impact in his speed boost, he is incredibly effective at one thing and that is holding an objective. He is the perfect substitute to a double healer comp in my opinion and he has great potential to put in similar healing numbers. He is extremely versatile with his charge and repellent. On maps like Aqueducts and Jersey Sinks, I think his ability to kill high target enemies with one move into a map environmental is underrated too.
Buttercup is my second change, moving her from B to A. She is just as good at not dying, whilst also having a deadly kit. Hooking an enemy into an Oil Slick around your team is about as good as Maeve's Cage to Siphon in how effective it is IMO. You are singling out an enemy, bringing him/her within range of your team and melee proximity, whilst not allowing them to escape with Oil Slick. Deadly!
I think Cass's Rake damage being buffed has improved her a lot more than I was expecting. As well as a mod for extra health. I still think she dies way too easily to Maeve and does very little in protecting her healers which is why, for me, she's still one of the weaker characters overall.
There's so little difference between A-C tiers though. Even perhaps contradictory at some points. So I'd go even further and broaden it more to this which I'm much more confident with, although pretty boring lol:
S - Maeve
A - Every other characterI've discussed Maeve to death across multiple threads including higher up on this one so it's not just a "I died a lot to Maeve in my games so I think she's OP". She remains the one character that really sticks out for me. It remains to be seen whether that consensus reflects the majority of the community after release which is when I'd feel a right time is for buffs/nerfs/changes. After all, these tier lists are all opinion based!
Again it's difficult to single out characters and base their effectiveness solely on their own kit rather than their potential with other characters in a team and certain situational team plays. For example, Kulev as a solo healer is the weakest healer for me because of his low passive healing, yet pair Kulev with a Miko or Makutu or Zerocool and he's incredibly powerful again.
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Gizmo deserves to be A minimum. She’s the only true sustained ranged dps which constant consistent damage puts a huge strain on the healers, especially Zerocool because his beam weakens over time.
She has zoning potential with turrets, displacement and minor interruption with sucka, verticality with bouncer, and an ult that puts out AoE % damage.
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She is definitely THE BEST at outputting damage IMO. But I think it's down to how much you let her.
Examples just to show sheer difference in output:
In Example 3 you can see how key Makutu was to my success (despite the fact we lost though haha). He made himself a target, disrupted their team and absorbed the majority of their damage whilst I was able to damage with free reign essentially.
Again I think it comes down to how much impact characters can have situationally. If you have a Makutu doing that job for you, then you're going to be doing lots of good work. If the enemy team focuses you and stops you from getting into positions to attack freely, then you are pretty much a burden to your team because you offer very little else.
In fact, it felt like playing Gizmo for an extended period helped me learn which characters were easier to focus and take down quicker than other. Gizmo was definitely one of the easiest to take down. Likewise if I was facing a competent El Bastardo or Daemon jumping on me, I quickly realised how little I was contributing to my team. I think, for me, that's why she is just under A Tier but marginally.
Her mod for getting a speed boost after using the Bouncer is a must for sure and helps her re-position and get out of sticky situations more consistently. I like using it aggressively as well so it has variation.
Strong point RE reducing the impact on Zerocool's healing beam though. It does have a noticeable effect. Again that's only if you let her for a considerable period I guess.
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@x-AmberPrice
i kinda disagree with your elbastardo placement. he is probs the character i played the most during the beta, and i found him to be quite strong.
he was the only character i was able to 1v4 with, (dont have the clip). i went in, used empower wich hit all 4 of them, then used death spiral wich they all were standing and letting me farm them with, then i used overlaod ult. and yea basically destroyed all 4 of them. at least thats how i remember it going. i may have had a zero cool come in and heal me around the end of that fight though.
anyways yea i think hes pretty powerfull. earlier you mentioned him mobility issue, wich i dont think is an issue. i find him more mobile than most, leap of faith can allow him to chase down enemies up above things aswell as in distance. you mentioned gizmo vs el bastardo earlier and said
"You Leap onto a Gizmo and all she has to do is evade backwards and you've got to either waste your evades to chase her or just sponge damage without producing shields whilst walking in treacle to get back into melee range."
i believe when gizmo starts shooting she slows down so it becomes easy to catch up to her. either way though, to kill someone like gizmo or anyone (this is how i do it) rather than diving in on them, i will run in on them or hoverboard in on them, combo them once, knock them back then use leap of faith, (or you could just dash and combo again then use it next. sometimes its better to save it for when she uses bounce pad), combo them again, and if they get away dash them and death spiral them then combo them again. that should fuck them up. i dont think i ever had an issue 1v1ing gizmo as elbastardo. person i had the most issues with as elbastardo was probs cass, but cass is not so good against everyone else.
this is usually how i would initiate fights as elbastardo so i wouldnt waste the leap of faith. i would only use leap of faith to guarentee peoples deaths. unless theres like 3 of us and 1 of them, cause we are most likely gonna kill them on initiation.
i feel like el bastardo deserves at least B teir, i think he is better than makutu, even though makutu could probs 1v1 him.
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Not enough Cass love IMO. A really good Cass player will dominate both fights and the map
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The prob with Makutu is he's the least threatening/most easily ignored character in the game. Sure, he's survivable (as all the tanks are), but that just means you save him for last. His hits are too slow/weak, so he never taxes your team's healing. His charge, while fun, is mostly just a nuisance, and Buttercup gets it for free without using up an ability. Repel could easily be the worst ability in the game, it does nothing, outside of extremely specific out-of-bounds kills. Heal's nice for himself, but is counter-intuitive as a team ability, since it has a tiny range on a melee character. Ball ULT is funny, but barely does damage. His Shoryuken is tons of fun though -- only it doesn't work on other tanks.
-Buttercup is just as survivable, while putting out an insane amount of pressure and area control. She's vastly superior at peeling, initiating, and killing runners. Pull makes her extremely dangerous in team fights.
-Bastardo has far more pressure/damage and can stick to targets like a fly on poop.
IMO Makutu would be a better pick if his heal had a larger default radius, and repel became attract (AOE vortex pull). Also imagine if his uppercut could lift other tanks into the air (but not stun/stagger them).
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I would like to notice that Makutu's Leg It is broken.
The ability is supposed to give allies and him, when activated by Y button, a bonus speed that is being applied only to allies at the moment, and not to him.
You can try it in the Dojo by yourself, removing the cooldown in the options and trying to apply it while running.
I love the character, would like to see it fixed, but I don't see the devs saying anything about it, and it's already reported. Although, the ability never worked as expected.
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In my opinion they need to nerf maeve, or at very least her cage ability. A suggestion that I think would be a good balance is to have the cage spawn an emblem on the player it is going to effect and wait 1 second to drop so the player can evade if they act quickly. There is currently a way to evade in game if you happen to luckily use an evade at the same exact time maeve is dropping her cage. I think a bigger window for evading the cage would be a good balance to the character.
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@AmazingVector I like it! I think I've learned that different characters ranks change depending on game mode and map. Gonna post about it a little later!
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I read all the posts, I play Makutu only, he is a easy target, once enemy focus on him, he die in 1s...he is too big and too slow, tiny punch from the huge body, how come!!! Never get away from fight.
Other characters all special and good, if you learn to play, but I really hate Maeves, seem to be the OP character in the game....I also thought there are too many shooting characters in this game...
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Maeve is the most overpowered character ever in a game like this. Buttercup is only slightly behind. They make every single other character absolutely trivial with how someone with even a passing knowledge of the dynamics of a game can absolutely dominate with them. It's funny, there are probably people who only main these two characters and have no idea that they are doing so much more damage than anyone else, for trivial effort, while having every manner to escape or elude combat if they're targeted. No other character has it even 10% as easy.
The rest of the tiers? Who cares? As long as your team has Buttercup and Maeve unless you royally screw things up you're going to win 99% of the time.
