Maeve has too much power in drain and cage combo
@MisfitBanjax said in Maeve has too much power in drain and cage combo:
Numerous abilities are capable of stopping her Life Siphon. Also practice evading her Cage. It's super tricky I know but it's doable and will screw up her ability to finish you off. She relies heavily on Cage. If nothing else, gang up on her. She is a glass cannon so giving her a beating to force her to Vanish, keep up with her and she'll die easy. Done.
@CheekHugger Literally just clued you in to how to counter her here.
It really is like @I-WORSTPLAYER-I said, she is really only powerful in a match if you let her be.
Right now you are just making yourself sound like you're not willing to put in any effort. It's a team game, players are expected to figure out how to beat the enemy AS A TEAM.
@MisfitBanjax Sorry no, the answer isn't come up with some wondrous work around or have the entire team gang up on a single character (pretty much proves my point). The answer is to simply fix her. Only her and Buttercup require some kind of obscene full team offensive to merely deal with, let alone defeat. They're stupid OP and need fixing. Losing her cage would be a good first step. That or her vanish, which really she should never have had.
@CheekHugger Not a "wondrous work around". Just normal counterplay. It's how players in competitive games, you know, win matches. And it doesn't take the whole team to beat Maeve. Just a bit of focus from like 2 people. Alternatively, just one El Bastardo with a good build for aggressive chasing or a persistent, mechanically skilled Cass. It's really not that complicated.
Then again, I suppose as someone who seems to mostly only play Gizmo and not even lock-on properly, you would find her too difficult to deal with since Gizmo is not an effective match-up against Maeve anyways.
Honestly doesn't even need that.
Cage? Dodge it.
Can't dodge it? Giz place the nade, she'll release or get knocked out of it, Daemon? Stealth, Nid? Little less reliable but Axe. Cass? You're fucked. Cass has other advantages though. Miko can likely survive almost anything unless she's hurt. Still shield. I like DPS Kulev vs Maeve honestly. ZC? You might be in a world of hurt. Heal bot + heal mod and you can still rock out if you're not hurt.
BC? She'll survive it, Bastardo? He's got options. Makutu? Dude will definitely survive it. MEKKO? Hahaha he hates all of jooo.
I mean yeah if your team is hurting and Maeve comes in on the backend? Yeah she can sweep you if you're not paying attention.
That is basically her role.
@I-WORSTPLAYER-I Exactly! Plenty of options
@MisfitBanjax I don't mean to come across as a fucking asshole but telling someone that they just aren't putting in enough effort, and the whole team should constantly deal with this ONE character who can teleport away, when dealing with a character that is oppressive is a very out of touch argument. The game won't get better if we just say "try harder" when someone feels a character is a problem. The game will only get worse. Go look at every other moba and overwatch right now lol. At least have a decent conversation about it. I feel really bad for Cass mains. Even one of the devs said on a live stream that Maeve will MELT Cass. I understand that counter picks and switching your character is something you have to do in a game like bleeding edge, but this hard counter is quite ridiculous. Cass isn't even overpowered to begin with. If Maeve weren't in the game, Cass still wouldn't be overthetop.
And let's just face it. Maeve is a skill based dps that gets reset CDs, a teleport, stealth, a trap, drain, and a giant burst damage attack. We are playing this game to have FUN, and Maeve isn't as fun to play against. At least make her a better character so she is even fun to play against. Just like how we should treat every character. I say this as someone who mains Makutu (who also has issues we need to be honest about) who will eat her ult for breakfast, or shield it for my teammates.
@GattlingCombo Pretty much. When dealing with a fight you're not just focusing on one other combatant, but also their team mates, and your team mates current predicaments. When you throw an even somewhat competent Maeve into the mix everyone has to adjust what they're doing just because she is present. And at any time she can merely cage someone, vanish, go get some health, and be back doing it all over again in 15 - 20 seconds. She is the epitome of an overpowered character in a game like this.
Buttercup is only slightly worse because even though she can quickly dominate and kill anyone trying to defend or attack a point, at least with a little communication she can be burned down. But given all of the tools at her disposal she still does far too much damage. And that Mortal Kombat Scorpion skill has far too much reach, which makes her even worse. She can grapple people into her group that couldn't even attack her from range if they spent several more seconds closing in.
The two characters have glaring issues everyone can see. So just fix them. It isn't hard. It's not like this is the first arena combat game to have had challenges with a few characters. It's just that with Bleeding Edge they don't seem to care.
First of all, you're not coming across as an asshole for having a valid argument. You're just being a little ignorant. Saying that I am saying "the whole team should constantly deal with this ONE character" when in my last post I specifically denied that saying that Maeve can be countered with as little as one person, and then Worst player backed me up on the same argument. For someone who is asking to at least have a conversation about it, you don't seem to be engaging with my points very well.
Secondly, Maeve can't really teleport away unless she uses her Peek A Brew super specifically to take advantage of an enemy who's greatly out of position. Given that's her biggest cooldown being used effectively to save her ass and punish an enemy in a specific situation I'd commend the amazing use of their super. Considering how most people like the burst of Toil And Trouble, I'd hardly consider her ability to "teleport away" a very big recurring problem.
Thirdly I want to make clear the specific points I am trying to argue.
- There's a difference between strong and overpowered
And that difference is one can be countered and is thus a healthy challenge, especially in a team game, the other cannot and is thus game-breaking. Now, I, as well as others, have given many examples of effective counters to Maeve, including plenty that, as previously mentioned, do not require a whole team, yet ye seem too stubborn in your arguments to actually try them.
- I'm trying to encourage good counterplay
It's a team game and counterplay is a fundamental part of it, especially in a competitive setting. This is true for pretty much every competitive game. Chances are, if you get stomped, that's why.
- Trying to balance characters is a very delicate art
It's something that can go wrong very easily, hence why my point of strong vs OP is important. Besides too much focus on the wrong thing can be detrimental to the overall development of the game.
Now in response to Cheekhugger...
You say in a team fight you're not just focusing on one other combatant, but also their team mates, and your team mates' current predicaments. For the most part, yes totally this is true! Situational awareness is important. However, you gotta have some focus on priority targets, right? Otherwise they are gonna keep the fight going until their team wears your team down, all while they are focusing the biggest problem for them on your team so they can come out on top. Regardless of who it is, be it BC, Maeve, Makutu, etc, if a competent fighter is thrown into the mix, everyone to adapt to deal with them anyway.
In the case of Maeve, yeah, she can totally do that...if she's ignored.
In Buttercup's case, hooks are always a strong mechanic in these kinds of games, and it's not that great on reach unless someone dedicates a mod slot to it. It is easy enough to hit with thanks to lock-on and her ability to close the distance which is in fairness the trade off for not being able to evade or parry. Plus she can be surprisingly squishy for a tank. All the strengths she has are to make up for what she lacks in sustain.
Again it's like what I said about strong vs OP, there's a difference between strength and an actual issue.
Like, of course anyone can look OP when you don't pay attention to their weaknesses. All fighters have them, just look.
Lastly, all I am saying applies to all fighters, not just Maeve. In the right hands I have seen every one of them become a nightmare. But then my friends and I would adapt, shut them down and win. Teams adapt. Typically, the winners are always the ones who adapt the best.
Now, I took care to address everything ye have said in your most recent responses, read it all and take my words into account before responding as well as address them properly when doing so. Aside from that, I'm all ears.
@MisfitBanjax Saying "right now you are just making yourself sound like you're not willing to put in any effort" isn't encouraging better play. It's just saying someone isn't doing enough when they are so frustrated with a character that they have to speak their mind about it in the forums. That's awesome that you give many examples on how to counter her. That's important. But saying someone isn't putting in effort is just a tired "git gud" argument. Other points you made are not.
With my ignorance, I don't have problems with her when I fight against her unless I am using Cass, who wipes her off this planet.
I'm just going to say I'm seeing some familiar names on here and their decision making is suspect.
There's just an order to using your defenses you need to consider when you know what characters
are on the field. Like I see some people start to chase down Maeve. Don't.
If you have a counter to siphon chase her off and keep it handy because she will be coming back, but
your cooldown is likely going to end faster than hers. In the meantime rock that objective. When is it a major
problem? If she catches you hurt already or you're trying to run away from the opposing team ganging up on
you. When does this effect multiply?
When your team sucks. I play a Maeve on the side and Maeve loves feeders. (for the uninitiated feeders = people who keep
running into hopeless situations feeding the enemy score) Your team will not save you.
No. You will die. Faster with Maeve because you'll be held, you'll be drained and double/trippled teamed
even faster. Even if you don't get caged that Siphon will stick to you. Then your feeder teammates show,
Maeves passive drops another cage and repeat. You should never run to a situation where you're out numbered
in the first place but Maeve doubley so.
This is one reason why having a good support is SO important and most of them can cancel out Maeves effectiveness.
Damn team games.
@Irish-Heisnberg Her survivability isn't that great tbh in my opinion. She does have a very good escape tool with her vanish but it's duration is very short. It's only effective because most people just end up ignoring her after she uses it. As for her Life Siphon, the healing you get from it isn't even that strong on it's own. Sure you can use mods to really help her survivablity with those specific abilities but costs mod slots. Seriously, she's fine, just stop ignoring her after you got her on the run, shut her down quick before she wastes your time pulling you away from the objective. Otherwise she's just heal up, come back and keep dealing her damage over and over again. Big damage is her thing but she is still very much a glass cannon and plenty squishy.
Look at it this way, if she really was so overpowered, you'd see her on both teams in literally every match. As far as I can tell, the only damage fighter who gets played too much is Daemon.
Glancing over this thread I can some pretty obvious problems. When one player mentions "use counters, counter Maeve" and the first response is "no, the developer should make it easy for me" that should be a red flag. I'm a class main, max level, over 2 days played on her. MAEVE is her biggest counter by far. You know who destroys Maeve? Gizmo, or any tank. This is a moba themed game so play it like one. If you play cass into Maeve and lose, the only person to blame is yourself.
As time has passed, the skill gap in this game has increased a lot. There's a lot of skill bases within the playerbase right now. The different experiences players are having with the game are a lot broader than they once were. Which always makes it hard to comment on whether certain characters are overpowered or underpowered. Which is also a reason why character balance has largely remained the same. It's difficult to balance for every skill base in the community right now.
Like any other character, Maeve also has characters she is super weak against, and super strong against, as well as certain team compositions she works well in, and not so well in. I think the importance of counterplay and team compositions, and actively switching your team compositions, is still very underrated in this game. At the same time, a lot of players aren't looking to analyse the details of their composition in every game, they just want to play whoever they want, and there's nothing wrong with that. And that relates to what I was saying earlier about there being a wide range of player experience, mindset and expertise in the game right now.
The opinion everyone has given on here so far is probably right, in accordance to where they're at as a player, and what their experience with the game has been like.
Typically, Maeve is extremely effective against "squishy" characters. She can melt them with a good 65-70% of their health alone with her Cage and Siphon combo, with the potential of even more with the right mod setup. And there's largely not much you can do once you're trapped in that Cage if you're on your own. She's great at locking down a Zero in the backline too. One of her biggest assets is that she's rarely the first target to be focused due to her Vanish giving her the option to disengage.
She's not so good if you nullify her Cage and Siphon combo though. Her basic attack is pretty useless, so if you can stop that combo, she's really not offering much at all. She has super armour when casting Siphon, meaning you can't interrupt it from basic attacks, however you can still stun her or knock her out of it. For example, Gizmo's Sucka, Bastardo's Leap, Buttercup's de-mount attack, Mekko's Surge, etc. There's quite a lot. Her other weakness is constantly putting pressure on her to force her into Vanish. Once she has Vanished, she should absolutely be priority number 1 unless there's a Zero literally pocketing her in safety. Bastardo is good at that. Daemon's mod that silences the enemy upon waking up from sleep can be very effective in bursting down Maeve too, denying her the ability to even use her Vanish.
With this skillset, you can see how she can be a real killer in a more disorganised team with a questionable composition. With the addition of Mekko however, a double healer set up around him on Objective Control can really cause Maeve to struggle making an impact.
In terms of using her in a full, coordinated and communicating team, she can be deadly regardless of the composition she faces. Just from her Cage alone. You can single out a target, completely paralyse them from movement, giving your whole team a free target to let loose on for 2-3 seconds. You can extend that 2-3 seconds of paralysis pretty easily if you combo even more movement impairing abilities onto the target, creating a cc chain. For example, Nidhoggr's Axe, Miko's Stasis, Gizmo's Sucka. There's pretty devastating potential there.
Going from pure potential in value alone, taking in all of the current skill bases in the game in this present day, I think she's one of, if not thee strongest character in the game right now. She has huge burst damage potential, she can initiate cc chains with her eyes closed as Cage is extremely frequent and difficult to dodge, she can immune herself to everything in the game for a short amount of time with Vanish as long as she's not stunlocked, and she can reset all of her cooldowns which can result in huge snowballs.