Counter System Feedback

  • I was really excited to try this game, and became more excited when the tutorial taught me to Counter players. This is exactly what I'd been looking for in a game - skill-based recovery systems that would determine the outcome of a match.

    But this has turned out to be meaningless. The recovery animations for both players after a counter is about the same, which means there's no real advantage to countering an opponent. And even if you count a reset of the interaction as a reward, this is only valuable in 1v1 situations, which you should never be in to begin with. In a group setting, countering one opponent would do nothing as another opponent hits you and CC's you with their melee combos anyways.

    There should be a legitimate and tangible reward for countering opponents, like a shield, a push on opponents within melee range, control resistance, SOMETHING, ANYTHING that offers a momentary relief that could help a player escape being mobbed on if they're legitimately a good player.

    This game should reward skill, not ignore it. I love what I've been able to do. I think the characters are unique and interesting to play. And while I agree with a lot of the other balance complaints (matching team levels) or bug fixes (mount cancelling) or content desires (I'd love some 2v2s, or some death matches!), I think this should be something the devs should consider.

    Like I said, there are other things I think need to be fixed that get addressed in these forums. Without balanced match-making or more gameplay options, you will never expand your player base. And there are some things that get brought up that I don't agree with - like people being against double-triple healer comps; you can change your hero in your spawnpoint in order to change your team makeup to respond to the opponents' team makeup. But I also believe this counter system was added as a "good idea" that was just tossed in and not thought through. And it could make the difference between keeping a dedicated playerbase or regularly losing players that start getting better and hit a wall of "nothing i do matters" - they learn the mechanics bc they think they're fun, they go into a match, and realize the mechanics are hardly important and they got "good" at a game that they aren't actually playing.

  • +1. Especially when in situations with ranged against melee. No matter what you do, if you’re cornered you’re dead.

  • You don't even have to be cornered. If you can't immediately turn a corner to put a wall between you and the Ranged DPS chasing you, you will just die trying to run away. There needs to be a way to counter Ranged fighters.

  • For the sake of argument, let's say NT buffed the parry mechanic.

    This would be an immediate buff to Daemon, Gizmo, Nidhoggr, Maeve, Cass, Miko, Kulev, Zerocool, Azrael, and El Bastardo. It would also be an immediate nerf to Buttercup and Makutu. Mekko is ranged and can't parry so he sits this one out. This would scramble up any balance that has already been applied.

    It is also mentioned that ranged heroes are hard to counter because of parrying. If you buff parrying they get a massive buff because not only can they parry but you can't parry their ranged basic attack.

    So far, buffing the parry looks like a catastrophe. So what about nerfing the parry mechanic? Ranged heroes get nerfed while melee heroes get buffed. This is considering the fact that their melee attacks would be more difficult to parry or you can't parry as often (this is a purely hypothetical method to weaken the effectiveness or how easy it is to parry).

    Melee heroes have plenty of tools to make themselves difficult to parry in the first place. Abilities reset your combo making it difficult for your opponent to time a parry. You can also stutter your animation by simply not button mash. If your attacks are randomly slower your opponent can easily mistime a crucial parry.

    Generally melee heroes counter ranged because they can apply a flinch which prevents the ranged hero from fighting back. Obviously there are more variables than that: map design, hero interaction.

    My point is this. The parry isn't supposed to be insanely powerful. It is a tool to help protect yourself when you are out of stamina or don't have any cool downs to save yourself.

    My advice would be to find value where you can. Hero counters, abilities that give you the edge that your missing/didn't realize you had, and maybe even just jumping in the dojo and practicing parry so you can deny your opponents their combos.

    I would like to reiterate that melee should counter ranged and in my experience I would say it does. Maybe this has to do with my hero selection, map, my opponents.

    Hope this helps.

  • @thetruepilliger

    While none of what you said is technically wrong, it does not address any of my issues. The parry does not provide any measurable advantage.

    I'm actually pretty good at parrying. When I first started playing, I played as Miko and went into the Dojo and spent a couple of hours learning character animations and countering them over and over. That's the reason I made this post. I really enjoy the system on a theoretical level, but in practice it's pointless.

    Without a real reward, there's no point in even thinking about the counter system. The amount of times I've countered a Nidhoggr just to continue to be CC'd by a Daemon (because I'm also stuck in an animation after a counter) is ridiculous. I don't even bother unless it's a 1v1, and in that case, I get bigger advantages by dodging and timing my own attacks to CC my opponent than countering.

    You're right that there would need to be additional balance changes, but that comes with ANY change that isnt explicitly balance-based

  • Parrying is great and actually can be the difference between you dying or them dying. It will not however, do anything against being ganged up on, for that you want a tank that can peel ideally but mostly just backup. That said if you are caught out, that could be just you getting caught out of position and the enemy team did a very good job punishing you for it in which case, that's more to the credit of their teamwork rather than discredit due to your mistake. Against ranged, there's a simple counter...slap the bejesus out of them. Hit-stun from melee is such a huge detriment to the damage from a ranged enemy. However if they parry you, then fair play to them, they are using parry to their advantage.

    Point is, parry can't be expected to help against everything but it can be a godsend against 1, maybe 2, melee attackers. It can buy time for your backup to come wreck them, it can help you stop their combo and dish out yours and lastly, and arguably most importantly, it gets you an evade back which can actually be all you need to escape. So yeah, the parry does plenty of good for you if you're consistent with pulling it off (unlike most of the playerbase) but again, only in the situations it's designed for, 1v1s. There's your measurable advantages right there.

    This game expects you to really earn your kills and work as a team, not 1v2 or even 1v4 to try carry the team.

    Long story short... what @thetruepilliger said. Just stop giving parry flak for working as it's meant to just because it doesn't help when you get yourself into bad situations.

  • @b4nj4x7581 said in Counter System Feedback:

    That said if you are caught out, that could be just you getting caught out of position and the enemy team did a very good job punishing you for it in which case, that's more to the credit of their teamwork rather than discredit due to your mistake. Against ranged, there's a simple counter...slap the bejesus out of them. Hit-stun from melee is such a huge detriment to the damage from a ranged enemy. However if they parry you, then fair play to them, they are using parry to their advantage.

    Parrying only feels effective because most players are bad at it. Parrying itself is, at best, a delay among 2 players of equal skill. It is a poor idea to have players that counter. Even just in theory you can think about it and see what a poor decision it is compared to any other game: the recovery animation for BOTH players is equal length in time. You can react much faster with a dodge, because you can immediately attack. There's no real benefit there unless you're dominating the counters.

    The whole point of it not working in a group is ANOTHER point of mine - it's a mostly useless system that the game makes a point of teaching you. It's a TEAM based game, and the ONE recovery mechanic they create that they offer most characters is useless IN A TEAM SETTING. I'm not sitting here getting myself in "bad situations" Mr. Assumptions. In a team, getting CC-focused, I can still survive getting heals or having a tank draw people off me, sure. My point is that there's an entire mechanic that is useless there that should have some sort of function. You see it in other games all the time. Most fighting games a counter knocks down the opponent while leaving you standing so that you can take control of the fight - it's a reward for mastering a mechanic in the game. I've seen counter systems offer shields so that if you're being piled up on by bad players, you can play off of countering players regularly to dominate the fight. If you're the better player, the counter mechanic gives you an advantage. It's a reward for skill.

    Sure, in those same games, if you get piled on by a full team because a poor pug healer or tank ran off or your team got wiped, and now you're facing down a roster of experienced players, there's nothing you can do. Obviously. But I'm not asking for that, either. I'm asking for a mechanic that the game makes a decent deal of teaching (melee counters) be more useful within the context of the gameplay its encouraging (group confrontations).

  • @TipDrizzle - So I take your points here that others aren't necessarily directly addressing the argument you're making. And I think I would agree, in theory, that a parry mechanism that was a simple reset wouldn't be that useful, and would be frustrating. But I'm actually not sure, on a technical level, that it's accurate to say, "Parrying itself is, at best, a delay among 2 players of equal skill."

    I'm not a super advanced player myself yet, and I have a lot of practice left to do on parrying, but I've been checking out some videos by Xion joreyo, who clearly is a much more advanced player, to try to get better. He put out this great vid on parrying, that I think substantively counters the points you're making:

    I really like joreyo's framing here suggesting that BE has a "virtually no-risk, medium-reward" parry system in contrast to most fighter games' "high-risk, high-reward, skill-based" systems. The video breakdown shows clear timing differences in the recovery animations for the person parrying and the person parried. It's enough of a difference that the person who parries can either get in a free hit or a free dodge (which, as @b4nj4x7581 pointed out, you are awarded for a successful parry), and they can get either one of those in before the parried player recovers. To me this means parry is not just a delay between 2 players of equal skill. It's a small, but still meaningful, opportunity to either try to take control of the 1v1 and get your own combo in if you choose to try that, or to duck out and escape if you know you're bested.

  • @Matolius

    That's a great summary video of the mechanics I hadn't seen before. I should send that to a couple of friends of mine still having issues with parrying lol

    I still think my point stands - it still acts like a reset if it's 2 skilled players just countering each attack at one another. I also think the idea that there's no risk is on its face wrong because of missed timing. Unlike a CC power (like Miko's freezing), or dodging, when you choose to counter, you're taking the chance on making yourself vulnerable. Maybe you missed the timing of an animation, or maybe your opponent is good at controlling strike speed for just this kind of situation. Whatever the case may be, there is a risk, making it the weakest of the options. The argument in the video is that, even if you get hit, you have another chance to parry on the next strike. Sure, but the point is, comparatively, the counter system is weak and ineffectual.

    I've played plenty of fighting games with different styles of counter systems, like reactionary RockPaperScissors-style counters, timed animation counters, time-window counters that allow you to counter an opponent within a time frame, etc. So far this seems to be the weakest version I've encountered.

    Regardless, it seems like the consensus is, "this is great how it is" so I'll drop it.

  • @TipDrizzle - That's all pretty fair, honestly, and I would certainly agree it appears to be the weakest option compared with CC or dodge. It's last-resort and low/moderate-reward. I don't want to belabor the point if you're dropping it, but I appreciate the response, and I at least think it was a thoughtfully presented and interesting convo, even if I ultimately do land on the side of liking it how it is.

  • @Matolius If there were a way to Like your post, I would. lol Any decent conversation that doesn't sound like snark is always appreciated.