Posts made by AmazingVector

@SoM3-R4Nd0M-NuB what is the criteria for this survivability list? Is it kills? Positional advantage wins? Forcing a flee/routed? These all seem like arbitrary numbers to me, so as much as I'd like to bring up points I don't even know what I'm looking at since the numerical values seem arbitrary and meaningless.

@Evade-This5965 I don't think Bastardo is weak, per se, he is just not a strong of a pick as other characters. Especially in the tank category, he feels the weakest at performing actions such as peeling and he is the only Tank type that flinches from combo attacks. This makes him weak as a pick and lose in the priority war to Nidhoggr because while Nid has less overall health, his abilities, combos and the healing he gets from them are far better. These put him below Makutu and at the bottom of the list.

Thanks for the input everyone, let's keep the discussion going! I feel like we have been narrowing it down well and going into Beta 2 we can look for changes and are able to accurately test theory discussed in this thread.

Hey everyone! After looking through footage, peeking the Discord and gathering all the information here, I have redone the tier list to more accurately reflect our consensus as a community. We have had a lot of discussion here the passed few days and it has been great. That being said, please be sure to drop any footage in the Twitch Clips thread, check the OP for the updated list, and let's keep talking!

I agree that parrying can feel frustrating to pull off against some characters but as I kept playing I realized how much it was used against me. Fast characters like Daemon can be tricky but Nidhoggr and Makutu are both slow and have a predictable rhythm. IMO it worked well when I wanted it to since there are characters who are more susceptible, it's just a heavily timing based technique but there is a skill curve there.

My biggest problem is having to deadstick to actually do it. That was very frustrating.

I feel there were plenty of combos I could discover. As a Bayonetta fan and as a long-time FGC competitor I found a good amount of ways to combo and put opponents in a midair state where you can deal big damage since they can't dodge out. For example, as Buttercup, a basic combo is after your X combo you launch them. Right as they fly into the air you can use the oil to cancel out the animation then use her Stamina-based Run to move in quick while the oil frees your movement for an extended combo or a slam in the air.

I feel as though you guys didn't explore enough. Make sure to Dojo in the next beta!

Really? Noone else streamed?

Air combos were on of the first things I sat in the dojo for. Some characters can go from midair attacks, to landing to continue the combo like in a traditional fighting game. I think one of the main concerns with the idea of the air combo as a concept is that a lot of the moves are either a 2-3 hit hard knockdown combo or a slam that goes into the knockdown. I've used them as a "get off me" option (Jump then immediately press X) because sometimes it feels random if I actually get the air combo or the knockdown attack but depending on the character, it is a viable option. El Bastardo has a quick midair 1-2 knockback that is decent for peeling if you aren't being harassed yourself.

I also fear that it may skew balance. Characters like Daemon can already instantly delete the likes of Maeve and Cass in one combo and since the midair juggle state is so powerful in this game since you can't dodge out during an air combo (or if one character is considered 'midair' while being hit). If this happens then it might not be much a "brawler" anymore.

@x-AmberPrice I feel like if you can constantly chase her out then she just sort of ends up as a psuedo assassin type that can't truly confirm if she is isloated. You can dodge the cage on prediction and if you close the distance you get in before Siphon can kill or get a lot of healing back. Then she is a melee attack away from either running again or straight up dying. I know this is why she sucks against Cass, because you can her the pops when she blinks in and out (they are loud IMO) and she can't get that damage in before Cass gets in again to net the kill and re-engage. I feel like her biggest problem is the counterplay making her more prone to being dived on, forcing the vanish, then having a Daemon, Cass or even Miko or Nidhoggr being aware of her poof-in and just trying to get in. She sort of needs the team built around her from my experience. She just never got so out of hand she wiped the team that I saw.

I also use the easily parried factor against Nidhoggr too. I do agree that when Makutu's combo gets to the animation where he comes down with the double-chop is super easy to parry. You get a lot of time to see it coming and 2 real chances to parry. I will say though the charge is something I guess I didn't see in totality where if the opponent hits the wall they get stunned. I don't think it happened to me, then again as a non-tank I try to avoid engaging them lol.

@Azrael008uk While I'm inclined to agree, like I said earlier there was a shift in picks as I kept playing and getting more wins. It's too early for a definitive look, of course, but the point is really to stir some discussion and have a knowledge base at a glance going into Beta 2. There is a lot of great insight here already and for what it's worth, I'd like to keep it going.

On Makutu

I feel like noone here really hated Makutu, I feel that especially after seeing some testimonies I have a better grasp on how I should have approached him. Like I said earlier I feel he falls into the "utility tank" archetype where the other 2 are clearly offensive powerhouses. There is something to be said about taking advantage of his stances, because from what I'm reading he seems more like a playmaker than anything else. Though, at the same time, the impression I'm getting are unanimous in that his kit is very dynamic and situational. I definitely feel after reading some impressions that there was a lot of unexplored potential so that is awesome.

Then again when I look back I don't think it gives him a leg up against the other tanks. It DOES make me reconsider the DPS hierarchy a bit, but I'd need to see some footage before I really care to move him specifically up in the ranks.

@BLAZ3-Major comin in with the Makutu knowledge! Hell yes this is just what we needed in this discussion!

You bring up a lot of interesting points about Makutu including his ability to deal with Daemon, which I either never experienced or didn't get to see. As I rewatch my Twitch Vods I do see him picked often in all levels, so I'm inclined to take these points into account as I do more research and edit the list in the coming days. Though I still feel like he is probably the weakest of the three tanks at a baseline, I am definitely reconsidering his position on the list as I am with a few other fighters. Did you stream your games at all @BLAZ3-Major ? I'd love to check out your vods if you do.

These are interesting theories, but I feel like we haven't nearly explored the breadth of what this game has to offer. I don't even think we are playing the "competitive" mode if I'm being honest, I feel like as a community we shouldn't do anything too sweeping as the gane has yet to mature. Taking just one look at the tier list discussion and others taking place on these forums it is becoming clear that the skill gap is already staggeringly high, with people undervaluing core mechanics such as the parry, jump attacks, and combo extension. I plan on opening up some topics for individual characters moving forward, so hopefully we can get these guys out of the woodwork to discuss even more going into Beta 2.

I am so down for this. It would really add to the immersion.

@ArrowSlit Practice makes perfect!

I feel like the currency will have more weight once skins are revealed. I feel like the rate you accrue currency is balanced around features we haven't seen, so I'm willing to keep things as they are moving into Beta 2. Though I do agree, not being able to see the skins is a big blow to player satisfaction if you find the gameplay offputting.

Are you guys serious? And nerf El Bastardo? He's not even close to being the strongest.

I feel like you guys just aren't giving the flow and fundamental gameplay a fair shot. Role Lock would kill this game.

First off I want to thank everyone for your input. I have learned a lot and I feel like I know what to look for in my twitch vods and looking forward into next month. This conversation has brought very well-informed opinions and interesting takes on nearly every character. So sincerely, thank you! I also wanted to encourage anyone who streamed to post your streams and clips in THIS THREAD so we can get some sort of footage bank going!

Now, continuing the discussion.

Maeve and Nidhoggr

These characters are considered by many to be a top-cut, some thinkong above the likes of Daemon and Miko. While I do believe that despite the percieved power level as scaled by the tier list that both of these characters are solid picks who fill their role well, there is a case against both that fundamentally holds them back from excelling where the others do almost effortlessly. I want to make it clear that the following opinions are from matchup experience and gameplay situations that I found prevalent while playing.

Nidhoggr
While Nidhoggr is indeed a strong pick with powerful specials and devastating Supers, I truly believe he is lacking in both combo ability and escapability. These factors, combined with his slow attack speed and his reliance on combos to restore health makes him just suboptimal when it comes to other choices. Bastardo included, as his already large health pool and special moves add to his comboability as a whole while still getting a similar (if not better) benefit. It also comes as a surprise to me personally that his slow and predictable attack rhythm doesn't get brought up, I have learned that during Beta 2 I should Dojo against it because towards the end I felt confident for the parry on hit 2 of his basic combo. It may be uncommon but it is definitely something to think about.

Maeve
Being a Ranged character, Maeve is already at a disadvantage to Miko. The Bubble Shield can respond to Cage, forcing Maeve to approach and be within Freeze range or reposition on another target. Buttercup and any character with a stun can interrupt Siphon on reaction, even using combos can break it, which results in forcine Maeve to either Vanish or reposition quickly to optimize basic DPS. As another point, I feel ranged in general is weak against melee because if closed in on you must either parry or know exactly how to escape in a way that can shake not just high speeds, but mixup situations and potential isolation from your team. It is incredibly tough for Maeve if she is the target of sleep as well because of this, being out of the fight at large allows Daemon to effectively neutralize you even during a Siphon, which is another mechanism to throw off her reset gimmick.

I also want to make it a point to say I will be revising the first post tier list in some way to more accurately reflect information from this point on. Thank you everyone for the discussion, I can't wait to see you all out there trying new stuff!

@x-AmberPrice Nice list, super interesting. I agree with a few choices, especially with Kulev as the weakest healer if picked solo. Even more surprised to see Cass lower than Gizmo and Bastardo and Makutu at the same tier.

Just a thought, how much do you value your tanks kill confirm ability to their survivability? I feel a lot of us put Makutu so low because he is that sort of "utility tank." That role is pretty much filled by Miko tho, as you said. That's the largest discrepancy with the tanks being that Makutu, while useful, isn't nearly as good at peeling and killing than the other 2.

Has anyone tried to hook or freeze Maeve during the combo? Shit Miko can even Bubble shield in response and Nidhoggr can Axe toss in response. Has noone clapped back against her?

Anyone else stream Bleeding Edge over the weekend? I miss playing so I am going through my vods and I see a fee "damn, nice!" moments I thought I'd share. I'll post more here, but I want to see everyone else's!

Miko nabs Nidhoggr

No Escape

Daemon: dismounted. Gizmo: Cornered. Both: Dead

Divided? I conquer.

Split em up, knock em down.

You can't run away!

Watch till the end (wtf Kulev.)

Buttercup Super interrupt.

Cass powerup shenanigans

@x-AmberPrice said in Suggestions Pulled from Reddit:

@American-Hermes I disagree with most of these, I'll try and give a good explanation why. Of course if this is a general consensus then it would obviously be important to look into changes regardless of what I'm about to say but I'll try and give my perspective.

"Role Lock" - I don't think it's necessary at all. Especially not right now as it would limit players' creativity thus naturally limiting the game's potential for creative synergies. From my experience there was never once any game where my team comp, or the enemy's team comp for the matter, was horrendously unbalanced (aside from leavers of course). And I'm not even sure if there is a certain team comp that is horrendously unbalanced right now? It's certainly too early to call for certain heroes needing nerfs or buffs. You've got a "Zerocool needs a buff" and "Zerocool needs a nerf" thread litetally beside each other as I write this, just about sums it up You could viably play as 3 supports and 1 tank if your team knew what they were doing. You could viably play as 4 DPS. Would either beat the best team of 4 currently in the game? Probably not, but it could certainly work in other games. I hate using Overwatch as a comparison so much but they introduced a role lock because it was essential that you had a healer. There's a difference of 6v6 vs 4v4 for starters. I could go on. Role lock is not necessary right now.

"Quit penalty" - I wasn't sure if there was one in the Beta or not as I rarely left a game but they began to implement one in the Alpha. But I disagree with them entirely. There's a lot of reasons behind a player leaving besides the fact they are losing. And, once one player leaves, you might as well leave right? But you can't because you'll be unfairly punished. I suggested a Vote to Forfeit option in another thread that I think would work well. I also think the natural progression of some sort of MMR (which I'm also not a fan of but a discussion for another time) will improve the state of leavers on launch as I do agree that a big issue in the previous Beta was leavers and joining into losing matches. It's a tough one to solve BUT a leaver's penalty punishes the wrong player more often than not.

"In-Game LFG" - I don't disagree with this, however there is a system (at least with Xbox) where you can organise LFG and join communities which will likely be in use at full launch. There's an LFG subforum here which has been left largely untouched. There's also the Discord which the majority have used as far as I've seen. But more LFG options in-game especially could be useful especially as the game is so team oriented. I just feel like at this point in developement that there are better uses of time as there are multiple methods to group up already.

"Chat Wheel" - I don't think it necessarily needs to be bigger, in fact I think it's a big improvement to what was in the early Alpha days, but it still needs working on, especially that "A" option (for Xbox) which had a mind of its own as you rightly pointed out. The more compact and concise, the better in my opinion.

"Downsize Maps/Increase Size of Team" - I think this is an unrealistic suggestion as they are fundamental parts of the game. I think it's also personal preference as well and not something that would undoubtedly solve some of the issues you suggest. In fact, ironically, if either of those were implemented I think the TTK would be infinitely worse, no one would ever die.

"Increase Capture Points by +3" - Again I don't see any significant reason to change this. If people wanted to gain their points via fighting then they can, they're not obligated to capture the points although there's a much higher rate of points to be gained so you'd be silly not to. You mention a teammate peeling off to capture an object whilst the others fight, I don't see anything wrong with that either. It's entirely situational. If he did that in the wrong moments then it could backfire. That's where essential teamwork and coordination come into play.

"Fix Lag" - Of course! I was lucky in the sense that not once during the entire weekend did I experience an unbearably laggy game. In fact, I've played since the first Alpha test and have rarely experienced lag since then. So I hope it's fixed for people who are experiencing issues, it's a tough thing to solve though, everyone has unique internet set ups!

"Better Mod Explanation" - I think there is a mention in the tutorials about how they work if I'm not mistaken? But not in terms of duplicates, perhaps it can be a line they add in the UI of the mods tab

I agree with this post. Role Lock is always a terrible idea as it pigeonholes strategic thinking and interesting team comps. We all have to understand that the game is still very new and everyone has a different opinion, but suggestions such as "make maps smaller" and "more players per match" are throwing out fundamental aspects to balance and teamfighting. I also feel that those suggestions are made from a players performing on the lower end of the spectrum.

While I do want leaver penalties, I have to say that with the game as it is, I feel like we aren't experiencing the true "competitive" mode. Until we see what Ranked looks like and how it is structured, I would hold off.

I disagree with the OP. The auto aim can actually be a detriment to PC players, since it focuses on the midsection and you can hit the limbs of your opponent as they dive into cover.

Honestly parrying with each character should feel different. Someone like Daemon might use a parry and get a shorter window to attack over someone like Gizmo, whose stun should last longer so she can get away. It is definitely useful, especially against Nidhoggr and Bastardo who attack like slugs and need their hits to land to be effective. I feel like that and being able to parry without deadsticking are the biggest deterrents from the mechanic at large.