@b4nj4x7581
Agreed. There are people that would start the vote process IMMEDIATELY if the other team scores the first set of Power modules. OR if they're team gets wiped at the start of the game, I can imagine one player just decided to stay out of the match and spam the "End Match" vote.
@Matolius If there were a way to Like your post, I would. lol Any decent conversation that doesn't sound like snark is always appreciated.
That's a great summary video of the mechanics I hadn't seen before. I should send that to a couple of friends of mine still having issues with parrying lol
I still think my point stands - it still acts like a reset if it's 2 skilled players just countering each attack at one another. I also think the idea that there's no risk is on its face wrong because of missed timing. Unlike a CC power (like Miko's freezing), or dodging, when you choose to counter, you're taking the chance on making yourself vulnerable. Maybe you missed the timing of an animation, or maybe your opponent is good at controlling strike speed for just this kind of situation. Whatever the case may be, there is a risk, making it the weakest of the options. The argument in the video is that, even if you get hit, you have another chance to parry on the next strike. Sure, but the point is, comparatively, the counter system is weak and ineffectual.
I've played plenty of fighting games with different styles of counter systems, like reactionary RockPaperScissors-style counters, timed animation counters, time-window counters that allow you to counter an opponent within a time frame, etc. So far this seems to be the weakest version I've encountered.
Regardless, it seems like the consensus is, "this is great how it is" so I'll drop it.
@b4nj4x7581 said in Counter System Feedback:
That said if you are caught out, that could be just you getting caught out of position and the enemy team did a very good job punishing you for it in which case, that's more to the credit of their teamwork rather than discredit due to your mistake. Against ranged, there's a simple counter...slap the bejesus out of them. Hit-stun from melee is such a huge detriment to the damage from a ranged enemy. However if they parry you, then fair play to them, they are using parry to their advantage.
Parrying only feels effective because most players are bad at it. Parrying itself is, at best, a delay among 2 players of equal skill. It is a poor idea to have players that counter. Even just in theory you can think about it and see what a poor decision it is compared to any other game: the recovery animation for BOTH players is equal length in time. You can react much faster with a dodge, because you can immediately attack. There's no real benefit there unless you're dominating the counters.
The whole point of it not working in a group is ANOTHER point of mine - it's a mostly useless system that the game makes a point of teaching you. It's a TEAM based game, and the ONE recovery mechanic they create that they offer most characters is useless IN A TEAM SETTING. I'm not sitting here getting myself in "bad situations" Mr. Assumptions. In a team, getting CC-focused, I can still survive getting heals or having a tank draw people off me, sure. My point is that there's an entire mechanic that is useless there that should have some sort of function. You see it in other games all the time. Most fighting games a counter knocks down the opponent while leaving you standing so that you can take control of the fight - it's a reward for mastering a mechanic in the game. I've seen counter systems offer shields so that if you're being piled up on by bad players, you can play off of countering players regularly to dominate the fight. If you're the better player, the counter mechanic gives you an advantage. It's a reward for skill.
Sure, in those same games, if you get piled on by a full team because a poor pug healer or tank ran off or your team got wiped, and now you're facing down a roster of experienced players, there's nothing you can do. Obviously. But I'm not asking for that, either. I'm asking for a mechanic that the game makes a decent deal of teaching (melee counters) be more useful within the context of the gameplay its encouraging (group confrontations).
While none of what you said is technically wrong, it does not address any of my issues. The parry does not provide any measurable advantage.
I'm actually pretty good at parrying. When I first started playing, I played as Miko and went into the Dojo and spent a couple of hours learning character animations and countering them over and over. That's the reason I made this post. I really enjoy the system on a theoretical level, but in practice it's pointless.
Without a real reward, there's no point in even thinking about the counter system. The amount of times I've countered a Nidhoggr just to continue to be CC'd by a Daemon (because I'm also stuck in an animation after a counter) is ridiculous. I don't even bother unless it's a 1v1, and in that case, I get bigger advantages by dodging and timing my own attacks to CC my opponent than countering.
You're right that there would need to be additional balance changes, but that comes with ANY change that isnt explicitly balance-based
You don't even have to be cornered. If you can't immediately turn a corner to put a wall between you and the Ranged DPS chasing you, you will just die trying to run away. There needs to be a way to counter Ranged fighters.
I was really excited to try this game, and became more excited when the tutorial taught me to Counter players. This is exactly what I'd been looking for in a game - skill-based recovery systems that would determine the outcome of a match.
But this has turned out to be meaningless. The recovery animations for both players after a counter is about the same, which means there's no real advantage to countering an opponent. And even if you count a reset of the interaction as a reward, this is only valuable in 1v1 situations, which you should never be in to begin with. In a group setting, countering one opponent would do nothing as another opponent hits you and CC's you with their melee combos anyways.
There should be a legitimate and tangible reward for countering opponents, like a shield, a push on opponents within melee range, control resistance, SOMETHING, ANYTHING that offers a momentary relief that could help a player escape being mobbed on if they're legitimately a good player.
This game should reward skill, not ignore it. I love what I've been able to do. I think the characters are unique and interesting to play. And while I agree with a lot of the other balance complaints (matching team levels) or bug fixes (mount cancelling) or content desires (I'd love some 2v2s, or some death matches!), I think this should be something the devs should consider.
Like I said, there are other things I think need to be fixed that get addressed in these forums. Without balanced match-making or more gameplay options, you will never expand your player base. And there are some things that get brought up that I don't agree with - like people being against double-triple healer comps; you can change your hero in your spawnpoint in order to change your team makeup to respond to the opponents' team makeup. But I also believe this counter system was added as a "good idea" that was just tossed in and not thought through. And it could make the difference between keeping a dedicated playerbase or regularly losing players that start getting better and hit a wall of "nothing i do matters" - they learn the mechanics bc they think they're fun, they go into a match, and realize the mechanics are hardly important and they got "good" at a game that they aren't actually playing.